World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings

[Wizz]

A Dark Ages CoD game with completely different play styles for two spheres would be really fun, but that's just IMHO.

[Lisse24]

@wizz Maybe, but it comes with all the downsides of multisphere WoD games including incompatible rule sets and misaligned power dynamics, a fractured playerbase, a bevy of confusing house rules, etc. If you want to play multisphere games, they are out there. I, for one, look forward to more single sphere games.

[Ganymede]

@wizz said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:

A Dark Ages CoD game with completely different play styles for two spheres would be really fun, but that's just IMHO.

This may very well be the case. When the end result is reached, we may make our codebase available for others, and they can try to integrate other spheres into it for their own game.

The people I'm currently working with have discussed this, and we simply feel more comfortable narrowing our focus for the sake of parsimony and sanity. We have also agreed that we will not be adding more to it.

[Apos]

@ganymede said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:

The people I'm currently working with have discussed this, and we simply feel more comfortable narrowing our focus for the sake of parsimony and sanity. We have also agreed that we will not be adding more to it.

I think that's a good call. I think most people when they hear more spheres think, "Oh, more character options, this means that there will be more characters, and more chances for roleplay." I don't think it works out like that.

It seems like the more difficult they are to truly integrate, the more time is spent on resolution of extremely niche issues that would get in the way of staff being proactive and helping to generate activity that is necessary to drive forward any non-sandbox. And the more specific characters are to different spheres, the harder it is for their Rp to be relevant outside of it, making it a lot more difficult for characters to create the kind of self-sustaining RP stories for each other that lessen the load on staff.

[WildBaboons]

If would be different if all the different spheres were made to actually play with each other.. but they're not. Aside from Beast apparently. Balance and all just isn't a thing between the books.. which I think is a shame, but it's how they decide to do things.

[Taika]

I can totally understand why @Ganymede and her friends want to keep it simple. We went from 'Yeah, we'll totally add wolf!' to, 'Man, how do we integrate the into the territory system without pooching the screw?', so now it's a maybe that hinges a lot on what the players want, and if we have the staff to properly support it. It's hard to balance it, even when you don't really care about 'balance' - that way leads to a maze of HR's and an impossible task that can't be won XD

[Ganymede]

@apos said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:

I think that's a good call. I think most people when they hear more spheres think, "Oh, more character options, this means that there will be more characters, and more chances for roleplay." I don't think it works out like that.

Right, and we believe this too. We also decided to lower the number of available Covenants and Mortal Factions to 4 apiece. But then, we decided to limit PCs to Vampires, Ghouls, and Mortals, but then have 21 Bloodlines (split between 7 Clans).

We do believe there will be sufficient variety that there will be many different concepts and ways to play, despite only drawing from one sourcebook (Vampire the Requiem 2E, with a sliver from Thousand Years of Night). The game will use Chronicles of Darkness as its core, with limited material from The Hurt Locker, for its basic system.

We're heavily leaning towards the 1E mechanics for using Blood Sorcery, but with Rituals/Miracles modified to fit the 2E system but not use the system presented in VtR 2E.

[Thenomain]

@ganymede said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:

@thenomain said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:

What I mean is that while I agree that ther is probably no place for werewolves in the political side of things, ignoring them while trying to control the land probably was quite foolish.

I understand what you mean now, and I concur with you on principle.

For the sake of keeping the workload of the anticipated small staff down, however, I believe we have to keep werewolves out.

I tried front-loading this sentiment twice now in saying that I understand what you're going for but Werewolves do have a place. That place is just advanced. Dork.

So yes, you start with one, introduce the others as you feel comfortable.

Did I say "dork" yet?

[Wizz]

@apos said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:

It seems like the more difficult they are to truly integrate, the more time is spent on resolution of extremely niche issues that would get in the way of staff being proactive and helping to generate activity that is necessary to drive forward any non-sandbox. And the more specific characters are to different spheres, the harder it is for their Rp to be relevant outside of it, making it a lot more difficult for characters to create the kind of self-sustaining RP stories for each other that lessen the load on staff.

What would maybe be kind of neat is to have what would basically be two different games share a grid. Two entirely different sets of staff, two different sets of storytellers, with an understanding that there is no expectation of cross-sphere support or "official" storyteller events or bending over backwards to create game system balance through house rules or anything like that. Each sphere has its own plot, theme, and focus and minds its own business (unless staff really, really wants to do something collaborative), and cross-sphere RP is entirely player driven with the understanding that it's at your own risk.

[Ganymede]

@thenomain said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:

So yes, you start with one, introduce the others as you feel comfortable.

This is not a bad idea, but this is not what we will be doing. At least, this is not what we (the people working with me and I) intend to do, and we have told one another we won't do it.

Now, if the game passes to someone else, they can do whatever they want with it, but know -- and be comfortable with the fact -- that we do not intend to add anyone else. Ever.

But, things change, sure.

Dork.

---

@wizz said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:

What would maybe be kind of neat is to have what would basically be two different games share a grid. Two entirely different sets of staff, two different sets of storytellers, with an understanding that there is no expectation of cross-sphere support or "official" storyteller events or bending over backwards to create game system balance through house rules or anything like that.

This is the approach that many multi-sphere games take, and that's fine. I don't mind those games at all. This is not what we intend to do, however, for many reasons other than staff workload.

One such reason is that we intend to lean heavily on the use of status within Covenants and Factions in order to mitigate the temptation to turn the PvP element into a blood bath. When you add in another sphere that is relatively independent from the first sphere, then that check is essentially nullified because, in this case, vampires could hire the werewolves to gack their enemies, and not suffer any status hit for it*. After all, there's plausible deniability: can't really predict what those silver-suckers will do.

So, with apologies to folks that want a wide-range of options and stories via multiple supernatural "races," it's just not going to happen here; however, if someone wants to take what we've made and expand on it, all the more power to you.

[Thenomain]

@ganymede

Well it's your game. Do with it what you want! This is perfectly acceptable and is what we all should be doing in the first place!

(Asshole.)

--

[Ganymede]

@thenomain said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:

(Asshole.)

I know.

It is an important thing, though.

Players have expectations of their games. It's sort of sucky to play on a vampire game, happily plugging away, and then, blammo, mages are dropped on you, and you're all, like, wtf mate?!?

I like my vampire people. I get along with them well.

Changelings too, but that splat ain't out, so --

[Tempest]

Werewolf is not a good MU sphere.

Werewolf has no overarching theme, nothing binding them together. Tribes are pretty meaningless. It's basically just a mechanical decision you make for your character. I've seen Clan/Covenant meetings on vampire MUs. I've never seen a "Hunters in Darkness tribal gathering" or a "New Moon wolfs only party".

Werewolf is 100% about "Packs".

Which are completely insular and have no reason to interact with anybody else.

Werewolf is the sandbox splat.

[Taika]

2e fixes some of that by allowing for multi-template packs. Yeah, you CAN still hole up, BUT there's reasons to go and rp with other folks from different areas of the game, too.

[Jennkryst]

@tempest Werewolf, like all games, does not function well when you just throw every book thing at a game and tell people to go forth with 0 ST input on a setting, hoping things will work.

Edit because spelling is hard.

[SunnyJ]

@jennkryst The third paragraph of the book is already talking about "Us" versus "Them". The game is about making insular packs, which in tabletop is ideal. The more people pretend that isn't what Werewolf is about, and that it in turn translates into pockets of sandbox, or interpack PvP, on a MU, the less we are talking about how to tweak the premise or game setups to make it work better.

Then again, I have heard people ask for pack vs pack werewolf MUs. So maybe the game isn't broken for MUs, it is just that nobody is willing to sit down and make a game solely revolving around physical combat pvp?

[Saulot]

Went back to working on a cyberpunk shard I had an idea for a while back, but it is slow going like a mother fucker.

[ThatOneDude]

@sunnyj said in World of Darkness -- Alternative Settings:

@jennkryst The third paragraph of the book is already talking about "Us" versus "Them". The game is about making insular packs, which in tabletop is ideal. The more people pretend that isn't what Werewolf is about, and that it in turn translates into pockets of sandbox, or interpack PvP, on a MU, the less we are talking about how to tweak the premise or game setups to make it work better.

Then again, I have heard people ask for pack vs pack werewolf MUs. So maybe the game isn't broken for MUs, it is just that nobody is willing to sit down and make a game solely revolving around physical combat pvp?

It also says: Werewolves see everything through the lens of the hunt. You form packs to have other people to hunt with. You keep territories to become familiar with hunting grounds. The spiritual, supernatural part of your soul gives you a predator’s instincts — and puts you on edge when you don’t hunt.

Later adding:
Other creatures might prove capable of aiding a battle with the idigam, even if indirectly. Vampires have little in the way of spiritual powers but can lend impressive resources to a pack in need. Manipulating human agencies to buy room to maneuver or providing weapons can help. Any hunt for Lul’Aya is certain to result in catastrophic damage and bring down all kinds of attention from authorities, but savvy vampires can help mitigate that. Few are potent enough or foolish enough to actually join in on the hunt itself. Other supernatural entities might contribute to the hunt. Creatures of fae glamour shudder when confronted by a being capable of ripping out a person’s soul and warping it.

[SunnyJ]

@thatonedude Isn't that all in the perspective of the pack, though? Okay. I invited another player into the game, they app a vampire and join my pack. I don't see the big dynamic change that paragraph proposes. Just small pockets where a single pack ST moves the game for that corner of the world.

[Tempest]

Just because you add a vampire to a werewolf pack doesn't change the fact that Werewolf is a terrible MU sphere with no core theme besides "make a pack and do stuff with them".