Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.
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@ganymede said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:
@calindra said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:
That's not me saying that you're not wanted, but me suggesting you look after your mental & emotional well-being by keeping away from the toxic and awful things that might cause you distress until you can let it roll off your back and keep it moving.
Let me just interject to say this:
I think you're missing Sunny's point.
We all internalize our emotions in our own way. Telling adults what they ought to do isn't helpful. Your advice is sound, but it will not lead to the kind of change that Sunny is seeking. She doesn't want to leave MSB.
She's asking for support for her request that MSB's admins/mods be fair and responsive, which isn't an unreasonable thing to ask for.
In my experience, Sunny is anything but a wilting flower, but everyone has their tipping points.
I understand certainly empathize with @Sunny's point. If admins are willing to take on the momumental task of trying to police up what's become the cultural norm of just speaking unfiltered and unchecked as people please in the Pits (only place on MSB I see where people can consistently get their feels and egos bruised day in and out), then power to them. At the same time, I just don't think it's a fair expectation. People read & post in those threads with the knowledge that they can and will be toxic and downright awful at times.
@Sunny And I'm not trying to give you advice, but just my generalized perspective of MSB/Hog Pit. I don't know you or anyone on this thing at all to give advice.
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@calindra
This isn't the time or place to engage in this discussion. I do not think you understand my point, but thankfully I think the mods do. If you would like to speak with me about my emotional investment or personal health, you are more than welcome to DM me.
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@sunny Again -- You know what, I'mma just slide up in your DMs.
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@calindra said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:
@sunny Again -- You know what, I'mma just slide up in your DMs.
(Since @Rucket is slacking on the job.)
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
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@Auspice @calindra
Damnit that is NOT WHAT I MEANT OKAY GOD.
ETA:
(that was for 'talk to the hand' since it doesn't have words on it.)
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@sunny said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:
If you genuinely do give a damn about how I feel about this, maybe stop dismissing me out of hand and consider why I might actually feel this way.
I am not dismissing your feelings. But, as you pointed out, actions speak louder than words and I can only change how we are doing things, not how people feel about them.
That's why I'm trying to give you the point of view from the other side; if you had visibility on our flagged posts you'd see they're coming across the spectrum of 'sides' on MSB about the way they are treated. So perhaps if we can't please everyone then we can at least displease everyone equally.
But my main point here was to address what you said about being unwelcome here. You are not unwelcome. And there's a point made several times in this thread about personal attacks outside of the Hog Pit, so the least we can do is be more vigilant about it since clearly it's one of the things we're less successful at.
@auspice said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:
One thing Arkandel has pressed in his management method is that he wants us -- as a team -- to be able to participate in the forum as well as moderate and for it to not just become "a job."
Straight up, the day I can't post as a regular forum member is the day I quit administrating on MSB.
But the perception is an issue. Because people see us as "greater than." So if I step into a discussion and say "I disagree," it comes with more weight than if Jimmy over there says it. If I say "I think you're being ridiculous," it comes across as sharper.
People disagree with me all the time. Why can't they perceive my greatness!
But more seriously, I enjoy MSB. I like the hell out of debating MUSH things here, from how to run a Wheel of Time game to privacy issues, posing styles, how to handle who has the spotlight... those things interest me. I hope they interest others as well and more than the popcorn bait threads in the Hog Pit.
But a) there will be mistakes (none of us are perfect and anyone who claims to be fails the test by the mere fact they made an account on this site), b) let me be "just a player" too and remember I'm just a volunteer.
Another thing I want people to remember is that an actively participating admin is a pretty new ('new', since we've been at this for several months now) thing for MSB. Glitch and ES were here but not to the same extent as us three.
Perhaps the notion takes some getting used to, I don't know.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@sunny said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:
@calindra
The trick is to stop caring about other folks more than they care for me. If you know the answer as to how to do that, please do share.
The answer is much easier to share than it is the do. It may also come down as selfish or stuck up but I personally don't see it that way.
In the end, you just have to realize that you are the most important thing that exists in your life. You take precedence. When someone says something to you, just gauge if it is worth your time acknowledging it. If it's meaningless BS, then its trash and ignored. There is no reason to waste another minute of your time thinking about it or reacting to it. If there is substance to what was said and it can help you improve yourself, then work on it to better yourself.
It's fine to be selfish mentally, it is not your job in life to please everyone or accept everyone. If they don't contribute meaningfully or positively into your life, they aren't needed. There is no reason to spend any of your energy on them.
Takes time and repetition.
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@kdraygo Yaaaaas!
This diva life takes time to polish! But it shines, oh laaaawd does it fuckin sparkle!
But real talk that was very nice what you wrote. I hope it helps others.
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Something I think would really help is to consider two things:
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Reporting tools can (and are often) used as a form of griefing
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Lots of people don't actually hit 'report' when perhaps they should
Taking those things into consideration for the creation of both policies and in how they are enforced would probably go a long way towards resolving the types of things that have given me the impression of unfair/uneven moderation.
You absolutely cannot change how I feel about this, no. You CAN help keep other people from feeling this way going forward, though.
It's good advice and something for me to keep in my tiny little brain when I'm trying to parse through some of this stuff. Thanks for bothering to answer that question, and for doing so with grace. I genuinely appreciate it.
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@ganymede said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:
And frankly -- and this is aimed at surreality -- please don't presume that I don't appreciate, understand, or notice that a few people here get treated like garbage on the regular whereas I can pretty much act like Uncle Ruckus, and folks just look the other way. It does not always come out in my responses, but let me state, for the record, that I understand some people are treated differently.
Here's the thing with that. You have at least four people talking specifically about how they feel they are piled on here or attacked beyond the bounds of what would be tolerated would it happen to someone else, and those four people have an abundance of spine; there are definitely going to be more than four who share that view. Some of them are people I have clashed with personally or don't get along with over the aeons, but I give a shit when hearing they feel like they are no longer welcome to speak or engage here. I can't not empathize with that, and I can't not give a damn.
I know you joke about being a robot. You're not.
I pay attention to it, and, if you don't believe me, talk to Arkandel and Auspice. (Some of y'all may, in fact, remember that I jumped into a thread to point this out in the Hog Pit, and the general consensus was that I "get away" with behaviors that others get shit on for.)
Then point it out when it happens. People out here see it, too. The ones engaging in this behavior clearly don't (or just don't give a fuck while liking to pretend they're somehow righteous or fair or enlightened or whatever else), but they are clearly the ones who need to.
Arkandel asked us as forum participants to call this behavior out when we see it. And mod or not, you are also a forum participant. The old 'with great power comes great responsibility' quote comes to mind here; you are in a unique position to take action by speaking up about these things when you see them occur, which is a responsibility everyone on the forum purportedly shares.
I see a lot of silence on that point.
One post pointing it out -- and I remember the post and heartily agreed with it -- doesn't stop the problem.
Pointing out the instances is what solves the problem. This is the only thing that will spread that awareness.
Months-ago posts don't turn the lightbulb on. "This is an example of what I mean," when it occurs over a short period of time sure as hell does a better job of it, and the concerns you're describing below don't even enter into that at all.
I have seen people scream and rail about sexist comments and insist that internalized sexism is being thrust on them and then turn around and make sexist remarks. I have seen people scream about how inappropriate rape jokes are for pages on end, then make one themselves, and no one dares say boo to them.
This doesn't require mod action.
This requires a voice.
Some of us are not listened to or are further abused if we are that voice. You're not.
So speak up when you see it. Say something. This would make more of an impact than any rule or ban or warning, and I think you know it.
If you are aware of a wrong going down and shrug it off, your silence offers tacit approval of that wrong, and there's a point at which you become complicit.
On the other stuff, I do think something like a temporary cooldown block is not a bad call.
Plenty of otherwise perfectly reasonable people, while heated, go too far. Blocking folks for a day or two to allow them to calm the hell down and recall who they normally are and be themselves when they seem unable to do it for themselves is a step I'm surprised hasn't come into play here yet. This has happened to a number of folks, and I don't exclude myself from this in the least -- it's not a bad idea to consider. This isn't uncommon on games, and it does tend to work to defuse uncharacteristic explosions.
Oh fucking well.
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@sunny said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:
- Reporting tools can (and are often) used as a form of griefing
Oh I know. Some of the people we banned have used them extensively. Also when there are... let's say strong disagreements we sometimes see multiple reports at the same time about the same thread.
- Lots of people don't actually hit 'report' when perhaps they should
That's also true. It's important to explain why a post is reported, since not all reports are actually against forum policy. For instance we've had reports in the past about too many Arx posts in a more generic thread, but being slightly off-topic isn't actionable.
Taking those things into consideration for the creation of both policies and in how they are enforced would probably go a long way towards resolving the types of things that have given me the impression of unfair/uneven moderation.
Fair enough.
You absolutely cannot change how I feel about this, no. You CAN help keep other people from feeling this way going forward, though.
I would like that.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@arkandel said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:
For instance we've had reports in the past about too many Arx posts in a more generic thread, but being slightly off-topic isn't actionable.
(No, really, that's so dumb a gif is the only appropriate response.
)Oh fucking well.
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@surreality said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:
(No, really, that's so dumb a gif is the only appropriate response.
)11/10 irony right here
King of the Compact (until July 16)
Princess of MSB (probably forever) -
@brent It'd only be that if I was the one who made that report. I'm most assuredly not. I whine about 'omg people not everything is WoD or Arx' out in the open like a sensible person if I can be bothered to care.
Oh fucking well.
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@surreality I kinda meant the whole "going straight to calling stuff dumb" bit when the general thrust of the whole thing recently was acknowledging stuff like that wasn't helpful tbh
King of the Compact (until July 16)
Princess of MSB (probably forever) -
@kdraygo said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:
It's fine to be selfish mentally
Shut up. You like me.
@sunny said in Hello MSBites! Grade your administrators.:
Reporting tools can (and are often) used as a form of griefing
To be perfectly and totally honest, I sigh and go 'what now' more often than not when I see a new report in the queue. Usually because if one of you reports something, 6 of you report it. And when someone is mass-reporting, I usually want to ban them.
Flooding me with reports is never, ever gonna make me go after the person you're reporting. EVER.
And akin to what @Arkandel has already said: a lot of people will report things like, 'This person attacked me.' ..........in a Hog Pit thread. This is part of why I think the Hog Pit is ridiculous. Because some of the very same people who argue about wanting the Hog Pit will turn around and report the people attacking them in the Hog Pit.
C'mon, y'all.
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
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@brent Well, reporting 'these people are talking about Arx too much' is dumb. Would you prefer obnoxious? Ill-informed as to what the rules are? Self-absorbed enough to think that they aren't subject to the rules? Entitled enough to think their petty annoyances about any given thing should be rules or should be acted on as though they were?
I could keep going here for a while.
Dumb is a pretty kind assessment of this behavior, considering the many alternatives.
Oh fucking well.
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