Dreamwalk MUSH

Arkandel

However, are inappropriate sexual fantasies the proper limit for a stream of consciousness Jungian cacophony? People are into some bizarre shit, man.

The answer is entirely yours since this is your game. What you should consider though is that if this is allowed you can expect it to take over, or make a pretty good attempt at it, and then you will find out exactly what kind of bizarre shit some people are into.

This can have no effect on your game, or it can turn anyone who's not as eager to participate in a 24/7 sexual orgy away from it, or it can draw players because of it. Either way it's your call to say what's inappropriate and what isn't.

A collective unconscious, minus potentially upsetting content, isn't really an unconscious. To me, it cheapens it, quite a bit. I don't want to go to your game, and break your rules, but I'm not inclined to impose these rules right now myself.

Then don't. You have the power! ... You also get to deal with the fallout.

As for your personal recourse, you can CHANNEL/MUTE COL to make it go away. Is that helpful?

That's probably the worst approach you can take for any public medium on your game. It takes all of the responsibility away from predators ("you can turn it off if you don't want to hear it!") and places it squarely on those they creep out. But which kind of player would you rather came to play and stayed?

Pyrephox

@demiurge Particularly where sexual harassment is concerned, forcing sexual interactions on a character is often done for the purposes of getting off to the idea of forcing those sexual interactions on the, usually presumed female, player. I guarantee that if you do have someone posting about how they want to commit sexual assault on Character X, they're not doing it because they're a deep and thoughtful roleplayer who wants to explore how their character's subconscious reality includes a highly sexualized id that has been shaped by the violence of their childhood.

There is a reason that games like Shangrila have MORE restrictions and abilities to nope out any content, in some ways, than other games - because they know that people are going to be playing with some damned disturbing content, and thus that players need more control over their interactions with the inevitable creeps who want to force people (usually women) to put up with their creepy bullshit because "it's IC". Not that places like Shang do a great job, mind you, and have plenty of creeps nonetheless, but this sounds like a 4-chan disaster in the making.

Which is a shame, because the idea of the game itself is really cool, and I had been thinking about making a character there. I hope it works out.

Demiurge

@pyrephox said in Dreamwalk MUSH:

Particularly where sexual harassment is concerned, forcing sexual interactions on a character is often done for the purposes of getting off to the idea of forcing those sexual interactions on the, usually presumed female, player. I guarantee that if you do have someone posting about how they want to commit sexual assault on Character X, they're not doing it because they're a deep and thoughtful roleplayer who wants to explore how their character's subconscious reality includes a highly sexualized id that has been shaped by the violence of their childhood.
There is a reason that games like Shangrila have MORE restrictions and abilities to nope out any content, in some ways, than other games - because they know that people are going to be playing with some damned disturbing content, and thus that players need more control over their interactions with the inevitable creeps who want to force people (usually women) to put up with their creepy bullshit because "it's IC". Not that places like Shang do a great job, mind you, and have plenty of creeps nonetheless, but this sounds like a 4-chan disaster in the making.
Which is a shame, because the idea of the game itself is really cool, and I had been thinking about making a character there. I hope it works out.

This is fairly persuasive. I think I'll ban rape/sexual assault shit in-game. If you see anything to that effect, report it to me, and I'll remove that player.

Sunny

@demiurge

I would recommend that anything sexual in any fashion involving another PC be something that that PC's player has to consent to. This includes fantasies of consensual action and the like. Not that the other character can't have them, but that they can't be explored on screen (in any way, shape, or form) about another player's character without that player agreeing to it OOC. Because of the nature of the game's reality, fantasies of consensual acts could easily be used for the purposes of being a creep.

Wizz

@demiurge said in Dreamwalk MUSH:

Harassment of player != harassment of character. If a player harasses my other players, they're banned. If someone's character harasses some other character, that's a shadier zone. A much shadier one. The expectation that your character needs administrative protection from uncomfortable speech/actions against them, to me, seems excessive.

I... think you're going to find that not a lot of people agree with the distinction you're trying to make there in regards to offensive behavior or harrassment. Personally, I find your argument bizarre. A "character" is not a person, it's an imaginary construct that has a real life person behind it. Content that is by its nature sensitive or offensive could be imposed on a REAL-LIFE PERSON that, according to you, is obligated to exposure because...it's a stream of consciousness? It's not, man, it's not actually someone's literal unfiltered stream of consciousness being automagically channeled into the void, the output from that chat channel on your game is the result of a deliberate choice by another living breathing player who could very well use the excuse of "oh, it's my character's subconscious! Bleh!" to say or behave however they want with no other justification.

It's pretty black and white.

Coin

One thing you might want to consider, @Demiurge, is that instead of having everyone be "Someone", have them have temporary names (maybe based on animals, like google docs). So if I log on, duringt hat session, I am "Blue Eagle". Everything I say, Blue Eagle says.

I understand that confusion is part of the "thing" for the channel, but it just... yeah. I think I could get annoyed by it super quick.

Coin

Doublepost:

Flawed, but interesting solution: have people be able to vote people off the Collective Unconscious. Just, you know, if the current majority doesn't want to continue being exposed to your sexual drivel, they nudge you right the fuck out for a while.

It's flawed becasuse: 1) at the moment everyone is someone and there's no way to distinguish (see post above); 2) it doesn't address the very real problmes @Sunny and @Wizz are talking about; 3) it does open the door to horrible people all swarming the game so they can just counter-vote and make sure their horrible buddies aren't banned.

So I guess it's too flawed to work, for the same reasons democracy is the worst type of government, except for all the others.

surreality

@coin This.

I know some games have coded things that replace the name with something like 'a quiet male voice' or 'an androgynous melodic voice' or whatever else, too. These can and should not duplicate (however you want to figure that out), but keeping people's contributions separate from one another isn't trivial. You could even set something up that when you actually meet the person face to face in the dream world, you 'learn' their voice, and thus see their name instead of the descriptor.

The 'spoof others' thing is definitely interesting as a concept, but I am unsure if it's one I would be comfortable running with personally.

If you're going to allow that, I'd suggest that coming with a cost of points that, when applied, records who used it and the statement made with it for staff records.

Most people in this hobby are awesome. Some are not, and that smaller group would be very likely to use this for many ugly things, plenty of them OOC grudgewank, trying to provoke OOC jealousy, ruining OOC friendships, or trying to drive players they dislike from the game, etc.

Demiurge

@sunny said in Dreamwalk MUSH:

I would recommend that anything sexual in any fashion involving another PC be something that that PC's player has to consent to. This includes fantasies of consensual action and the like. Not that the other character can't have them, but that they can't be explored on screen (in any way, shape, or form) about another player's character without that player agreeing to it OOC. Because of the nature of the game's reality, fantasies of consensual acts could easily be used for the purposes of being a creep.

You know, and I get that, but I'm kind of rubbing the bridge of my nose between my eyes on this one. I can totally see some weirdo coming on here just to creep on you and be a pain in the ass like that. That such is realistic is very believable. So if the majority of someone's IC content is just lewdposting on CU, I'd likely ban them for being a shit player.

THAT SAID, I'm getting the vibe from a lot of people here that they want a blanket ban on offensiveness. That, I'm not really willing to accommodate.

@wizz said in Dreamwalk MUSH:

@demiurge said in Dreamwalk MUSH:

Harassment of player != harassment of character. If a player harasses my other players, they're banned. If someone's character harasses some other character, that's a shadier zone. A much shadier one. The expectation that your character needs administrative protection from uncomfortable speech/actions against them, to me, seems excessive.

I... think you're going to find that not a lot of people agree with the distinction you're trying to make there in regards to offensive or behavior. Personally, I find your argument bizarre. A "character" is not a person, it's an imaginary construct that has a real life person behind it. Content that is by its nature sensitive or offensive could be imposed on a REAL-LIFE PERSON that, according to you, is obligated to exposure because...it's a stream of consciousness? It's not, man, it's not actually someone's literal unfiltered stream of consciousness being automagically channeled into the void, the output from that chat channel on your game is the result of a deliberate choice by another living breathing player who could very well use the excuse of "oh, it's my character's subconscious! Bleh!" to say or behave however they want with no other justification.

It's pretty black and white.

I'm willing to consider censorship in extreme cases, but what I'm getting from you in this post and others in general is that you demand an outright ban on all things you find offensive. That's pretty black and white, and it's something I'm not inclined to accommodate. "That offends my sensibilities" cannot, and will not, become a basis for censorship on this game. And I'm sorry if that alienates you and a lot of other people, but it's not something I'm budging on.

Roz

@demiurge I think you're doing a lot of conflation with "something that offends someone's sensibilities" and "something designed to harass other players and make them uncomfortable." I'd suggest you think of it less in terms of censorship and more in terms of "how is this theme and medium I've chosen going to allow people freedom to be creeps and how can I can minimize that." Everyone on the thread gets what you're trying to go for, I think. It's just that you seem to be a bit unaware of what you're opening the game up to. (Smack me if I'm wrong, but I'd wager you maybe don't have the experience of being a woman on the internet? Obviously harassment is not limited to women, but there's a reason why a lot of folks talking now on the thread about this point are women.)

Sunny

@demiurge said in Dreamwalk MUSH:

THAT SAID, I'm getting the vibe from a lot of people here that they want a blanket ban on offensiveness. That, I'm not really willing to accommodate.

There is literally zero discussion from anyone here regarding suggesting that you address "offensiveness". People are specifically addressing sexual matters. Please don't put words into my mouth. "I don't want to deal with someone harassing me sexually" and "I don't want to see anything I find offensive" are VERY VERY VERY different things and I absolutely object VERY STRONGLY to you characterizing the point being made this way. Given where this discussion is taking place, I am bowing out of it now. I wish you luck.

Arkandel

@coin said in Dreamwalk MUSH:

it does open the door to horrible people all swarming the game so they can just counter-vote and make sure their horrible buddies aren't banned.

You misspelled "the same guy's 10 puppet logins". Which with everyone using a single anonymous name is going to lead to one hell of a situation.

Demiurge

@roz said in Dreamwalk MUSH:

@demiurge I think you're doing a lot of conflation with "something that offends someone's sensibilities" and "something designed to harass other players and make them uncomfortable." I'd suggest you think of it less in terms of censorship and more in terms of "how is this theme and medium I've chosen going to allow people freedom to be creeps and how can I can minimize that." Everyone on the thread gets what you're trying to go for, I think. It's just that you seem to be a bit unaware of what you're opening the game up to. (Smack me if I'm wrong, but I'd wager you maybe don't have the experience of being a woman on the internet? Obviously harassment is not limited to women, but there's a reason why a lot of folks talking now on the thread about this point are women.)

I don't have the experience of being a woman on the Internet. I'm not a woman, so I can't. However, I've had another user on the game say that if someone uses "fag" or some variation on it, they'll leave immediately. There's a reason why I'm using the word "offensive" here because it covers the totality of the complaints here. I haven't had a content complaint that didn't fall under that umbrella.

You should bear in mind that, as far as Dreamwalk MUSH is concerned, all of this is hypothetical. I haven't had anybody say terribly bad things by 21st century Anglo standards. Not to my recollection. I jus don't want to run a game where the first time a player who comes in as something to the effect of a space marine and calls a homosexual man "degenerate," which is a pretty reasonably in character thing for such a character to do, and have to deal with a massive meltdown from my playerbase. Pro-LGBT space marines are, dare I say it, a retarded idea.

Just as you are concerned that I'll tolerate serious creeps, I'm concerned that the players will expect me to maintain and enforce what amounts to a badwords list, and ban entire subject matters or common perspectives in the interest of sanitizing things to conform to their sensibilities.

Roz

@demiurge Your consistent characterization of these concerns as people wanting you to "sanitize" and "censor" your game feels pretty dismissive and unimpressive. Best of luck, I guess.

Arkandel

@demiurge It's not going to be useful to be doom-and-gloom in comments. You seem to have a handle on things, so I hope I'm wrong, and that it works out well!

bear_necessities

This post is deleted!

Arkandel

Guys, keep in mind this is the Advertisements section of the forum. Keep this to questions about the game and please steer away from criticism - there are other sections for that sort of thing.

Wizz

@demiurge said in Dreamwalk MUSH:

I jus don't want to run a game where the first time a player who comes in as something to the effect of a space marine and calls a homosexual man "degenerate," which is a pretty reasonably in character thing for such a character to do, and have to deal with a massive meltdown from my playerbase.

And you are more than free to have your space be that place, no one is contesting that. Just understand that that is not OK to spring on people, if those are the kinds of themes and the kind of environment you are apparently at the very least OK with if not actively encouraging -- players should be giving their informed consent that that is the kind of arena they are about to enter.

Like, had we not all had this conversation, no one would have been aware that this is your vision of the game and that sensitive content is going to go largely unfiltered. That's an important warning to a lot of people!

For the love of god man, if you don't want a meltdown, then put up a disclaimer.

Demiurge

@wizz said in Dreamwalk MUSH:

For the love of god man, if you don't want a meltdown, then put up a disclaimer.

I did put up a disclaimer, it's in the TOS:

You Are Responsible For What You Transmit

Please don't transmit anything obnoxious, because if it gets bad enough, banning you might become necessary. While we are in favor of a laissez faire culture, there are limits. Try not to push them too far.

Definitely don't transmit anything that is illegal under United States Law. We won't hesitate to cooperate with authorities if you end up using this service for anything illegal under United States Law.

We Are Responsible For Nothing

By going farther, you agree that anything you are exposed to here is your own responsibility. We are not here to babysit you, so that aforementioned laissez faire culture might mean you read something that offends you. It might even offend us. We generally don't regard this as a very good reason to ban or consequence people.

Be Creative, Have Fun, and Be Fun

In spite of how harsh the first two things might sound, we would much prefer to have creative but pain in the ass players than easily-managed but boring players. Things only seem ridiculous before they've been done before. Do something neat and even forbidden. Play along with other users, but don't be a cog or a pushover. By going further, you agree to create something clever, to make your presence known, to, simply put, pull some shit. In character, of course. Try to keep out of character drama to a minimum.

Wizz

Best of luck to you.