Firefly - Still Flyin'

[Otrere]

Having just announced our Firefly game over here, I thought I'd start up a companion thread...

If people have constructive feedback - especially if there are things that make you hesitate from joining - we want to hear about it. Post here, contact us in-game, or at our email address... we're listening.

Osiris

[Auspice]

We reserve the right to:

monitor scenes while invisible if we have reason to believe that foul play may be going on or because we have received complaints about a player’s IC and/or OOC attitude towards others;

This is giving me pause.
Does this include private scenes?
What constitutes a complaint worthy enough of spying on RP?
Would it be a continuous 'sitting in on every scene you have because Jane complained about a thing you said OOC the other day'?

I admit, the idea that everything someone does might be spied on because any complaint was filed makes me hesitant.

[Ghost]

Question.

What will the policy be on recreation of Serenity Mush characters and/or whether or not content from Serenity Mush is allowed as canon for this game?

[Derp]

@Auspice said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

We reserve the right to:

monitor scenes while invisible if we have reason to believe that foul play may be going on or because we have received complaints about a player’s IC and/or OOC attitude towards others;

This is giving me pause.
Does this include private scenes?
What constitutes a complaint worthy enough of spying on RP?
Would it be a continuous 'sitting in on every scene you have because Jane complained about a thing you said OOC the other day'?

I admit, the idea that everything someone does might be spied on because any complaint was filed makes me hesitant.

I mean, realistically this has been an unspoken policy on every game, thus far. We all know that staff can do this, and we know that staff have done this. Yet we still keep playing.

This wouldn't give me pause. I say kudos to them for being willing to put it on the table in the first place and talk about what steps they are willing to take in a transparent way.

[Ganymede]

@Derp said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

I mean, realistically this has been an unspoken policy on every game, thus far. We all know that staff can do this, and we know that staff have done this. Yet we still keep playing.

This wouldn't give me pause. I say kudos to them for being willing to put it on the table in the first place and talk about what steps they are willing to take in a transparent way.

I concur.

[Auspice]

@Derp said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

I mean, realistically this has been an unspoken policy on every game, thus far. We all know that staff can do this, and we know that staff have done this. Yet we still keep playing.
This wouldn't give me pause. I say kudos to them for being willing to put it on the table in the first place and talk about what steps they are willing to take in a transparent way.

Yes, but. There's no marker on what they will sit in on your scenes for or which scenes.

This goes back to the 'Yes Staff can do this, but I play on games where I can trust that Staff won't lurk in Dark on all my RP.'

If they're outright saying 'yeah we might sit and watch your private scenes whenever we feel like' - that's their prerogative, but it also means I won't be playing there. I've been on a game where ALL RP echoed to Staff and the Staff channel often devolved into making fun of players. I don't wanna be the player being made fun of because someone thought my TS was mock-worthy.

[ZekeTheG33k]

@Auspice said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

@Derp said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

I mean, realistically this has been an unspoken policy on every game, thus far. We all know that staff can do this, and we know that staff have done this. Yet we still keep playing.
This wouldn't give me pause. I say kudos to them for being willing to put it on the table in the first place and talk about what steps they are willing to take in a transparent way.

Yes, but. There's no marker on what they will sit in on your scenes for or which scenes.

This goes back to the 'Yes Staff can do this, but I play on games where I can trust that Staff won't lurk in Dark on all my RP.'

If they're outright saying 'yeah we might sit and watch your private scenes whenever we feel like' - that's their prerogative, but it also means I won't be playing there. I've been on a game where ALL RP echoed to Staff and the Staff channel often devolved into making fun of players. I don't wanna be the player being made fun of because someone thought my TS was mock-worthy.

I make fun of you all the time though.

[Auspice]

@Seamus said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

@Auspice said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

@Derp said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

I mean, realistically this has been an unspoken policy on every game, thus far. We all know that staff can do this, and we know that staff have done this. Yet we still keep playing.
This wouldn't give me pause. I say kudos to them for being willing to put it on the table in the first place and talk about what steps they are willing to take in a transparent way.

Yes, but. There's no marker on what they will sit in on your scenes for or which scenes.

This goes back to the 'Yes Staff can do this, but I play on games where I can trust that Staff won't lurk in Dark on all my RP.'

If they're outright saying 'yeah we might sit and watch your private scenes whenever we feel like' - that's their prerogative, but it also means I won't be playing there. I've been on a game where ALL RP echoed to Staff and the Staff channel often devolved into making fun of players. I don't wanna be the player being made fun of because someone thought my TS was mock-worthy.

I make fun of you all the time though.

Yes, but to my face.

That's sort of what I'm getting at. Yes, they're being honest that they'll spy on RP... But what's the limit there?
Mockery in private (oof, RPing and fearing the whole time that I'm being snickered about by Staff)?
Lurking in scenes because someone they like/are possessive of/jealous of is RPing in private with someone else?

It's easy to fabricate a complaint. I'd feel more comfortable if, at the least, there was a line of 'You can request details of any complaint filed about you, but we reserve the right to withhold names' or similar.

[Sunny]

Staff can, and always have been able to. I do applaud their willingness to state they will be doing so up front, and what parameters they will be doing so under, so that those who do not feel comfortable playing under those parameters (me) will not go into an uncomfortable situation/something won't jump out and be a surprise. It's a good thing.

[Rowan]

At least they're not using 'observer objects' like Firan, which would be on you 24/7 logging everything both IC and OOC.

[surreality]

I'm for them listing it; I think more games should if they'd ever consider this, no matter how extreme the circumstances that might trigger the need.

I can think of circumstances that would make me consider it, though ultimately I'd probably look into something more like using the SUSPECT flag or similar. (They're pretty extreme circumstances, namely: claims of RL threats being made, stalking (RL stalkers on the game, or online stalking), and stuff on this level.)

I'd still like to know what the circumstances would be that would bring this up, though.

[Pandora]

@Rowan said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

At least they're not using 'observer objects' like Firan, which would be on you 24/7 logging everything both IC and OOC.

My stomach still hurts thinking about this & how blatantly it was abused.

[Browncoat]

Hi everyone,

let me introduce myself first, I’m Otrere’s partner in setting up the new Firefly Mush and my admin alt there is Londinium. While Otrere is at work, I want to try and adress the valid concerns here.

It’s basically like Derp says: Admin have always been able to lurk in the dark and watch whatever they wanted. We felt it would be better to say upfront that we MIGHT do this at some point if necessary.

But let me reassure you that it’s really a last resort kind of thing and we most definitely have no interest in watching/reading anyone’s TS scenes or otherwise private scenes.

An example for when we may have to take a look is, if we’ve received several complaints about Player X being a creep who doesn’t take no for an answer when flirting and crosses into stalking territory, constantly crosses other lines and/or doesn’t respect requests to FTB. So if we see Player X with another character in a private room, we may go and take a look to see if these complaints are justified and have to call him/her to order.

But we wouldn’t do it over a single complaint – we’ve both been mushing long enough to know how quickly people like to complain and that often two players have a personal axe to grind. It’s not our job to police THAT. But we also know from experience how one awful player can foul everything for others and we just want to be upfront about the measures we can possibly take.

So here’s an idea:

We could add to our policies, that we will warn Player X once that we’ve received complaints and his/her scenes could be subject to being monitored.
We could also adopt Auspice’s suggestion that this warning contains a note, that the player can request details of the complaint(s) filed against them (withholding names).

We have both played on mushes that created a really paranoid atmosphere because admin could be watching quietly and come down hard on you for any perceived imaginery offense against them.

We DON’T want that kind of atmosphere. We want people to enjoy the mush and feel comfortable. The “monitoring” thing is really just meant as a safeguard to prevent jerks and asshats from… well, being jerks and asshats.

I hope all of that makes sense?

[Auspice]

@Browncoat It does make sense and thank you.

I think some form of clarification would be helpful. As I'd said, there's no indication of at what point you would take that step. And if it'd happen over a single offense or similar: that's worrying.

I guess my follow-up question is: are you using a system to track/log complaints? That way if, say, Janet is concerned a Staffer is lurking in her scenes for selfish reasons, she can go to Other Staffer and inquire about it and they would be able to follow up and verify that it's for a valid reason. Not 'Well, he's observing because he says he received three complaints this week'

I'm not saying y'all will/would do that, but I know I'm not the only one here who has had a Staffer act against them for personal reasons and it'd be nice to know the oversight is in place just in case.

[faraday]

@Browncoat said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

So if we see Player X with another character in a private room, we may go and take a look to see if these complaints are justified and have to call him/her to order.

I'll echo what others have said about kudos for being transparent about your intentions, and also for just the organization/clarity of your wiki as a whole. Nice job.

But I think there's a flaw in your reasoning on the spying thing. Say you've gotten some complaints about Bob, maybe even warned him that he's been complained about and his scenes might be subject to monitoring.

Now you see him and me doing a scene in private, so you pop in to see what's going on. Firstly, you're now invading my privacy based on a complaint that has nothing to do with me. If I'm getting creeped upon, I can just complain to you myself and submit a log to you. Secondly, creepers aren't generally creepy all the time , so you run the risk of negative confirmation bias. "Oh, well, we popped in on four of his scenes randomly and it was fine, so the accusers must be making it up." It's just not a very effective strategy IMHO.

It's not a question of "rights" here - you certainly have the right to do it. You just have to weigh whether the "last resort" kind of situation you're describing is worth establishing a policy that's going to chase good people away.

[Browncoat]

@Auspice said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

are you using a system to track/log complaints?

Well, it's only Otrere/Osiris and me and we're in touch daily via various channels (email and instant messenger). We're just playing sort of tag, because I'm in Europe and he's in the US, so I'm now able to respond and chat in my evening while he's at work, then he'll take over later tonight when he gets home and I'm in bed Since the mush is still very new, we haven't received any complaints yet and at this stage I'm optimistic that we might not need an elaborate system, just discuss how we'll handle a complaint and take it from there. But in the case you describe, we would both know exactly what's going on and could answer questions what the other one is up to (there might just be a delay due to the time zone stuff). We don't plan to hire other staff for the time being and if we reach a point where it becomes too much for two people would try to recruit staffers only among people we've known for a long time and trust.

[Browncoat]

@faraday said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

You just have to weigh whether the "last resort" kind of situation you're describing is worth establishing a policy that's going to chase good people away.

Thank you for your thoughtful response, @faraday and the thought occured to me as well that we'd also invade the other player's privacy in this case.

To be entirely honest here, I personally hadn't expected that this bit of policy would stir so much feeling, because it's been pretty much a given on every mush I've been on that staff might lurk "dark" in scenes. I've only ever RP'ed wth that thought in my mind and would only ever talk about staff in pages or through channels away from the mush. So when we wrote the policy, it just seemed... a normal staff thing to do (and say). But if people think that the line would make people uncomfortable and even chase good players away, I wouldn't mind removing it from the policy.

[Auspice]

@Browncoat said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

@Auspice said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

are you using a system to track/log complaints?

Well, it's only Otrere/Osiris and me and we're in touch daily via various channels (email and instant messenger). We're just playing sort of tag, because I'm in Europe and he's in the US, so I'm now able to respond and chat in my evening while he's at work, then he'll take over later tonight when he gets home and I'm in bed Since the mush is still very new, we haven't received any complaints yet and at this stage I'm optimistic that we might not need an elaborate system, just discuss how we'll handle a complaint and take it from there. But in the case you describe, we would both know exactly what's going on and could answer questions what the other one is up to (there might just be a delay due to the time zone stuff). We don't plan to hire other staff for the time being and if we reach a point where it becomes too much for two people would try to recruit staffers only among people we've known for a long time and trust.

Speaking as someone who has Staffed, I think having some sort of system (even if it's just your own Google Spreadsheet) in place could be important. Because even though it's just the two of you right now...

Bob might get a complaint tomorrow.
Six months from now, you have a new Staffer, and there's a new complaint against Bob.
If you have a tracker, they can see 'oh, this is his second offense' and also collect any other history needed. Whereas otherwise, they might think it's the first. Obvs you might communicate, but I know I, personally, would like to be able to handle something immediately vs. waiting for someone to come along and go 'Oh yeah we talked to him about that months ago so now we need to...'

@Browncoat said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

@faraday said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

You just have to weigh whether the "last resort" kind of situation you're describing is worth establishing a policy that's going to chase good people away.

Thank you for your thoughtful response, @faraday and the thought occured to me as well that we'd also invade the other player's privacy in this case.

To be entirely honest here, I personally hadn't expected that this bit of policy would stir so much feeling, because it's been pretty much a given on every mush I've been on that staff might lurk "dark" in scenes. I've only ever RP'ed wth that thought in my mind and would only ever talk about staff in pages or through channels away from the mush. So when we wrote the policy, it just seemed... a normal staff thing to do (and say). But if people think that the line would make people uncomfortable and even chase good players away, I wouldn't mind removing it from the policy.

Others don't seem to mind the policy. I do. Because of having dealt with Staff who will lurk / play peanut gallery. And I also think (esp. since you're using Penn) that using the SUSPECT flag is a much better way to go about things (since it would capture everything as opposed to just when you're around creating that confirmation bias that @faraday mentioned). And it'd prevent the whole 'invading on another player's privacy.'

I know we've long discussed that privacy isn't necessarily a thing on these games. Esp. if you have a potential problem player. But I feel I should be allowed to RP in private with the reasonable expectation that it won't be observed.

[Browncoat]

@Auspice said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

Speaking as someone who has Staffed, I think having some sort of system (even if it's just your own Google Spreadsheet) in place could be important. Because even though it's just the two of you right now...

Yes, it's a good idea. We'd probably have started discussing this when we did actually get a complaint, but it's good to have it ready.

But I feel I should be allowed to RP in private with the reasonable > expectation that it won't be observed.

Yes, I understand that, too and for me it went without saying that this is an entirely reasonable expectation. As a player I've been through some of the most (in-)famous mushes where staff made players' lives hell (not least SerenityMush, but also Firan and Blood of Dragons) with corruption, micro-managing, creating angst, etc. and that's the last thing I ever want to do. I know we can't be "universally loved" by everyone but I've also been on smaller mushes, where staff is greatly liked and respected and that's the kind of environment we want to achieve.

I'll have to run this by Osiris/Otrere to see if we can use the SUSPECT gallery.

[TiredEwok]

@Browncoat said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

@faraday said in Firefly - Still Flyin':

You just have to weigh whether the "last resort" kind of situation you're describing is worth establishing a policy that's going to chase good people away.

Thank you for your thoughtful response, @faraday and the thought occured to me as well that we'd also invade the other player's privacy in this case.

To be entirely honest here, I personally hadn't expected that this bit of policy would stir so much feeling, because it's been pretty much a given on every mush I've been on that staff might lurk "dark" in scenes. I've only ever RP'ed wth that thought in my mind and would only ever talk about staff in pages or through channels away from the mush. So when we wrote the policy, it just seemed... a normal staff thing to do (and say). But if people think that the line would make people uncomfortable and even chase good players away, I wouldn't mind removing it from the policy.

I think the policy is best left as being something left unspoken. At this point in the hobby, which has been around forever, I think pretty much everyone knows that it is a possibility that one's RP/OOC interactions/etc might be monitored by staff under certain situations. Stating that outright makes people who have had bad experiences, heard bad stories, or whatnot, anxious and less inclined to play on a game, as been evidenced in this thread.