Diversity Representation in MU*ing

Kestrel · Jun 4, 2020, 7:22 PM

Things that offend me: racist stereotypes.
Things that don't offend me: white people playing white people.

Of all the things to be mad about, this ain't it.

#MU*sSoWhite is a nonsense hashtag. I assume it's referencing #OscarsSoWhite. These are not morally equivalent crimes.

The Oscars (and RL media in general) being white-dominated is a problem because non-white people don't have the same opportunities in life, nor do they receive the same/fair recognition as their white counterparts. Real people are affected when out of a diverse line-up auditioning for a role, only the white actors stand a chance, or white people are paid more, etc. And when non-white children grow up only seeing white protagonists in the media they consume, they're made to feel like they don't matter and never will have the same opportunities white people do. Similarly, when media depictions of women give the impression their sole purpose in life is to be a romantic/sexual satellite for men, that gives people of all genders the wrong idea of how to treat women -- and in women's case, how they ought to treat themselves.

No one is hurt when white MUers play white characters. You aren't paying your played-by royalties. You aren't denying starving black artists the opportunity to perform in your world. You aren't taking away representation from POC. You are representing yourself. Everyone who plays these games has the opportunity to represent themselves and live whatever gay/female/black/disabled/whatever fantasy they like. We make our own superheroes.

I have literally never looked at a mostly white, mostly male or mostly straight ensemble on a MU* and felt ostracised by that fact alone. It would be different if, out of 10 female characters and 20 male characters, all 5 leadership positions were filled by dudes. It would be different if someone called my gay/POC character a slur.

I have however frequently been disgusted by POC characters clearly played by someone who doesn't belong to that minority group, who uses the character's "exotic" skintone to base the entire concept on. For example, a weed-smoking, uneducated black criminal who spends most of his time talking about KFC, drugs, and white booty. (Yes I have run into this. MULTIPLE TIMES.) Please don't encourage these people by suggesting they're heroes for providing #representation.

What I do think played-by choices often reveal is beauty standards. Most people pick faces they think are attractive. I often cringe when I read descriptions that wax poetic about how super blonde and teutonic and alabaster-skinned some elegant specimen of Western masculinity is, or when people list their "race" on a character page as Nordic/Irish/white, especially when that's a custom field rather than a default one. Maybe if you're one of these people it's worth examining your own biases.

Do it quietly, in your head.

And direct your white guilt towards more important causes.

Tinuviel · Jun 4, 2020, 7:18 PM

@Roz said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

@Tinuviel I think you're conflating a few things. One, having a fantasy setting decide to basically forego racism as part of the theme doesn't mean that all the players and the OOC experience will suddenly be free of bias, because OOCly we're all still brought up in this system.

Second, I think you're conflating "this experience was valuable for my personal learning and I think others could find it valuable, too" with "all games must provide this specific experience in the same way."

No, actually. Not even remotely, on either of these points.

I am speaking, specifically, about the idea that was raised that playing a POC character to tell and experience stories from the viewpoint of a POC, specifically to try to understand their point of view in reality.

@Sparks said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

Granted, that pressure is more common in anything set in the modern-day world, as opposed to fantasy worlds, but I'd argue that the modern-day world is where being willing to expand your viewpoint is actually potentially important to things outside of pretendy fun-times internet story games. Since we aren't experiencing widespread and systemic real-world racial oppression of elves, or werewolves, or Togruta, or anything else mythical or purely fictional.

egg · Jun 4, 2020, 7:43 PM

@Kestrel Why shouldn't I be mad? If I spend most of my leisure hours in a place where "representing yourself" = white (and even moreso, Aryan half of the time), shouldn't I want to see change there? Is it as important as the film industry changing its racial bias? Of course not. Does that mean I shouldn't care at all? No.

silverfox · Jun 4, 2020, 7:47 PM

@Kestrel's post represents all of my fears about how people would react if I attempted to place my PB as a PoC.

I don't want that directed at me if I end up playing a steryotype I wasn't aware existed because no one had confronted me on it before. (I was literally 21 before it hit my dumb ass that cotton picking fingers was RACIST AS FUCK and I SHOULD NOT SAY IT.)

Tinuviel · Jun 4, 2020, 7:49 PM

@egg said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

If I spend most of my leisure hours in a place where "representing yourself" = white (and even moreso, Aryan half of the time), shouldn't I want to see change there?

Sure.

Blaming people for being white is a stupid fuckin' thing to be doing though.

egg · Jun 4, 2020, 7:49 PM

@silverfox The "easy answer" to this one = educate yourself before you play a POC. Read some books, watch some movies, talk to people. Many MU*ers do research for their "roles" so I don't feel like this is a completely wacky suggestion.

Tempest · Jun 4, 2020, 7:49 PM

@egg said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

@Kestrel Why shouldn't I be mad? If I spend most of my leisure hours in a place where "representing yourself" = white (and even moreso, Aryan half of the time), shouldn't I want to see change there? Is it as important as the film industry changing its racial bias? Of course not. Does that mean I shouldn't care at all? No.

This is some of the dumbest nonsense I have read in a while.

You're basically saying you have a problem with the fact that most MUers are white.

You are being racist.

This is absolutely nothing at all like the Oscars or anything else. Nobody is picking you the player for a MU.

surreality · Jun 4, 2020, 7:49 PM

@egg Uhm. What are you suggesting those of us who are white do, then, to represent ourselves, if 'representing yourself = white' is wrong and/or bad?

This is not a snarky question, it is legitimate confusion.

Maybe you don't intend to convey it being wrong and bad, but it's sounding that way, and the 'Aryan' mention is... uhm. Pretty sure there are not a lot of white supremacists engaging with this topic?

Auspice · Jun 4, 2020, 7:51 PM

@egg said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

@Kestrel Why shouldn't I be mad? If I spend most of my leisure hours in a place where "representing yourself" = white (and even moreso, Aryan half of the time), shouldn't I want to see change there? Is it as important as the film industry changing its racial bias? Of course not. Does that mean I shouldn't care at all? No.

Because of the reasons she said above.

It'd be more damaging if people ended up portraying gross stereotypes.

To pull from my own experiences:
as a bisexual woman, I can't stand seeing people play pan/bi characters as serial cheaters because 'well it's not like they can commit, heehee!' or 'oh s/he's just bi until someone convinces him/her to choose to be gay!'
As a woman whose heritage is predominantly Irish, oh god the Irish stereotypes. I know this isn't even REMOTELY as bad as the racist stereotypes, but the Oirish crowd pisses me off sometimes. I hate the accent typing. I hate the drunken Irish stereotype that you see ALL OVER WoD games paired with the accent typing. Again, not remotely as bad as racist stereotypes, but I still feel insulted when I see it.

Going around shoving people into playing POC would just invite racist stereotypes by people who don't know what they're doing and it would be so much worse. They might not do it out of malice, but the ignorance could DEFINITELY alienate people.

egg · Jun 4, 2020, 7:51 PM

@surreality Well, here's the thing: you don't have to "represent yourself" on a MU* at all.

You can play a character different from yourself. I've personally never played a character who was "like me," so I find this argument from everyone pretty interesting.

Kanye Qwest · Jun 4, 2020, 7:52 PM

@egg said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

@Kestrel Why shouldn't I be mad? If I spend most of my leisure hours in a place where "representing yourself" = white (and even moreso, Aryan half of the time), shouldn't I want to see change there? Is it as important as the film industry changing its racial bias? Of course not. Does that mean I shouldn't care at all? No.

nah different things will always bother different people, and that's ok. It doesn't bother Kestrel, good for kestrel! It does bother you, ...well, not GOOD for you, but you know what I'm saying here. That's also valid and worth talking about.

I get annoyed by all kinds of demographic stuff in MU, and some of it you just have to shrug at (no one wants to be over 33 years old, no one wants to be unattractive) and some of it you grouse about to your friends (why is everyone 7' tall, why are 22 year olds experts of everything that ever could be accomplished by a person, why do people call eyes orbs) and some of it is actually problematic and bears examining (why DO people assume 'default' or 'normal' is white? why DO people want the inclusion of RL biases).

Tinuviel · Jun 4, 2020, 7:52 PM

@Kanye-Qwest said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

why are 22 year olds experts of everything that ever could be accomplished by a person

Have you ever met a 22 year old that didn't think they were an expert on everything?

egg · Jun 4, 2020, 7:52 PM

@Auspice So the two choices are to play someone exactly like yourself or a stereotype?

It doesn't have to be like this. People can educate themselves. I don't even run a game so I have zero power to "shove" anyone into doing anything at all. All I'm doing here is talking.

reversed · Jun 4, 2020, 7:53 PM

@Kanye-Qwest said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

why do people call eyes orbs

Orbs are just neat

Auspice · Jun 4, 2020, 7:53 PM

@Kanye-Qwest said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

why do people call eyes orbs

pick one:
orbs or limpid pools

Kanye Qwest · Jun 4, 2020, 7:53 PM

@Tinuviel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

@Kanye-Qwest said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

why are 22 year olds experts of everything that ever could be accomplished by a person

Have you ever met a 22 year old that didn't think they were an expert on everything?

lol well no but I mean. I have also never met a 22 year old with a pHD who is also a master of several languages, instruments, and martial arts.

ps my secret shame is that when I play short characters I'm dumb about it. I'm like LOOK HOW TINY THIS PERSON IS. HOW DO THEY LIVE. It boggles the mind. Short people, what do?

Tinuviel · Jun 4, 2020, 7:53 PM

@egg said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

@Auspice So the two choices are to play someone exactly like yourself or a stereotype?

It doesn't have to be like this. People can educate themselves. I don't even run a game so I have zero power to "shove" anyone into doing anything at all. All I'm doing here is talking.

Okay then, tell me.

Why should I play a black person?

egg · Jun 4, 2020, 7:55 PM

@Kanye-Qwest I mean, sure. Let's have a dialogue. That's all I'm asking for here. People seem to want to shut me down for some reason. If you don't agree with me, that's fine. I'm just putting stuff out there.

I agree that there's plenty of shitty demographic stuff on games (the ageism thing is a bitch) and it shocks me that it's been this way forever. Also, "athletic with curves" should be banned from all descs.

Sparks · Jun 4, 2020, 7:55 PM

@Wizz said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

It also ties into a fantasy trope that has ALWAYS bothered me, that fantasy cultures are usually super-simplified in much the same way -- ie, dwarves are all miners and heavy alcoholics , elves are almost always archers and scouts and live in forest communes, etc. It's become shorthand because it's recognizable and writers are desperate for shortcuts sometimes, but isn't that problematic for most of the same reasons it's problematic in real life?

I feel like genre fiction often seems to use race (in a "species" sense, like elves/dwarves/whatever, or alien races) as a shorthand for cultural background, and it annoys me greatly from a number of narrative and worldbuilding standpoints. Doubly so since the 'cultures' are often way more homogeneous than real cultures are. And I sometimes can't help but wonder if that also sets a precedent in pop culture that "all X (who are Something Different) are Y" that unconsciously reinforces real-world prejudices for some people, by giving them a world where absolutes can demonstrably be true (and the places where it isn't are the one dwarf who's written to be 'different' or whatever, i.e. the exception that proves the rule). Which is something that's never the case in the real world.

Then again, human brains are often weird and wildly divergent; something that one person views as harmless can reinforce another person's toxic views, because two human brains can take the same pattern and set of facts and draw two wildly different conclusions from it. When it's about objective things it's easy to say one person's wrong, but when it's subjective—especially about someone's personal emotional response to a thing—you can't really say that either is wrong, because neither's an invalid way to feel.

Which unfortunately means all of this—all of it—is really complicated, and no one is going to ever completely solve this sort of stuff because everyone views things differently, and something one affected person thinks is a good step forward and wholeheartedly encourages might have another person of near-identical background feeling offended.

I personally figure "being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes and see things from a different viewpoint" is not just a useful skill in writing various characters in a book, novel, or in an online game, but more importantly also sort of key to actual honest-to-god empathy for our fellow human beings, even when our situations differ. And empathy—real empathy—is something which my Quaker upbringing leaves me firmly convinced is something we seriously need more of, especially in today's world.

But all we can do is try to be better as we go forward day-by-day, and recognize that absolutely no approach—to any part of these sort of challenges—will please everyone. Not even everyone of the same culture and background.

reversed · Jun 4, 2020, 7:55 PM

@Kanye-Qwest said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

ps my secret shame is that when I play short characters I'm dumb about it. I'm like LOOK HOW TINY THIS PERSON IS. HOW DO THEY LIVE. It boggles the mind. Short people, what do?

I have decided to just lean into Katarina being some kind of 5'1" mogwai