Differences Between MUDs and Everything Else? (MUSHes, MUXes, etc)
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Obviously I can go on ranting about what I see these differences as, though personally I do think the primary difference at this point is that MUDs have MOBs and anything outside of a MUD generally does not.
But what I'm wondering is other people's opinions on this. What do you think keeps people from just playing a really good RPI MUD, arguably significantly better and more robustly coded equivalents to Firan or Arx (no offense intended there, mostly my own opinion on what the code aims for), but instead aim for playing a Firan or Arx or a very intensely coded MOO?
Like, at what point in a game's design do you think an average MUSHer looks at a game and goes "that's too MUD for me"?
I'm asking this due to my code ambitions for the game I'm working on. Considering that I never shut up about the topic, you know that I generally consider myself to have a good grasp of the what, where, why, and how people play specific things, but this is one question that somewhat alludes me, because it's not something I can easily gather data on. So I thought I'd simply ask the community at large.
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@SparklesTheClown In my experience, coming from 25 years of MUDs to MUSHes just last year, the main difference is experience grinding and number chasing. The instant you reward people for essentially solving puzzles, killing mobiles and running around on the grid using their skills -- a lot of those people are going to base their RP on who has the highest combat skill, and think about nothing else. Which means, effectively, you have a number chasing game, not a roleplaying game.
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The way I see it, a game has several "dials". These aren't on/off, but a scale:
<--- automated --------------- narrated --->Automated is coded things like mobs, crafted tangible items, coded sickness, etc. Narrated means driven by GMs/storytellers/players.
<--- immersive --------------- freeform --->Immersive is code you interact with to simulate what your character is doing. Flying spaceships, navigating dungeons, etc. The code guides the RP. Freeform has few (if any) coded constraints. (I separated this from automated because you can have immersive manual code--e.g. a comms system or news bbs.)
<--- solo -------------------- troupe --->Are you mostly playing the game by/for yourself, or is it more of a community feel.
MUDs tend to have the dials turned more left.
MUSHes tend to have the dials turned more right.
Code-heavy MUSHes (like Firan) and RPIs have a mix, but slant leftwards.
And you don't have to have one dial for the whole game either. Many games have had some things (combat/space) slant left while others (eating/economy) slant right. Or they have some solo minigames while most of the game is a troupe feel.
So I don't think there's a simple tipping point where something becomes "too MUD" for a player. I think it's a more complex sliding scale of taste. Is the specific combination of dials on a game fun for me?
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I think its definitely that if there is something you can do alone, or in small groups, in an effective way to pursue tracked character gains based on code you get farming.
For me, so far, the best settings for that where you can also RP are ones where everyone is at an equal level approaching a similar set of tasks that also justifies that level of activity (kill counts). Justifying that level of activity also means something like a war, or easy travel over vast areas. An example might be the video game Destiny.
That pace of activity really sets things apart. Even in a war setting, imagine if I could go out of a Battlestar and kill hundreds of Cylons a day. That would completely undermine the desperation of the staying away from the cylons, and the idea that combat with them was deadly.
A heavily coded but highly deadly roguelike for say WW2 infantry action could be immersive, but not MUD-like.
You could mitigate this somewhat by having encounters not be deadly, for instance they would be social interactions (see the video game a Minuet of Ambition), or by having gains only widen your available options for actions without ever creating a power gap (or an end game that everyone is assumed to be playing at). Again, pacing becomes the issue. And if you limit actions to a few an IC day or week, then they are minigames, not the MUD experience.
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@SparklesTheClown said in Differences Between MUDs and Everything Else? (MUSHes, MUXes, etc):
Like, at what point in a game's design do you think an average MUSHer looks at a game and goes "that's too MUD for me"?
The places a MUSH player will opt are pretty simple but also very dependent on an individual.
a) Something coded in the game that they feel they have to deal with but do not enjoy. Ie, RPI having to eat/drink/sleep or required maintenance tasks.
b) Feeling that they are prevented by coded constraints from roleplaying about something they want to do. This is not necessarily a bad thing, it can be sanity checks and automatic thematic enforcement.
c) Feeling that code is removing their narrative autonomy over a character. In RPIS this is mostly automated actions.I think the most effective trade offs are making interacting with the environment feel rewarding and responsive, and act as thematic reinforcement of what a character is really good at and what they are bad at in regards to the environment. But always making sure it stays true to the character and players aren't forced to handwave things away for narrative ease.
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@SparklesTheClown said in Differences Between MUDs and Everything Else? (MUSHes, MUXes, etc):
Like, at what point in a game's design do you think an average MUSHer looks at a game and goes "that's too MUD for me"?
It's about documentation for me, not about how far something skews in terms of code. That is, typing
kill monster/sword/optional switch/non-optional switchis clunky, but I have no problem doing it to do it is long ashelp killis a useful file. Everything I need as a player should be documented in an easy-to-read help file.Look at Ares for a good example of what I mean. Every command is well-documented, every system and admin responsibility has a tutorial.
Even though coded combat is all about
combat thing1/optionalwtf=thing2/more options=dude for reals, I love playing with it, 'cause I can just typehelp combatand all the commands are right there, or go to /help/combat on the portal. I would never have imagined myself giddily roll-playing my way through scenes, but the documentation makes it easy to turn potentially clunky strings of code into useful RP baubles.If you build it and then document it, people will come, Ray.
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@faraday said in Differences Between MUDs and Everything Else? (MUSHes, MUXes, etc):
The way I see it, a game has several "dials". These aren't on/off, but a scale:
<--- automated --------------- narrated --->Automated is coded things like mobs, crafted tangible items, coded sickness, etc. Narrated means driven by GMs/storytellers/players.
<--- immersive --------------- freeform --->Immersive is code you interact with to simulate what your character is doing. Flying spaceships, navigating dungeons, etc. The code guides the RP. Freeform has few (if any) coded constraints. (I separated this from automated because you can have immersive manual code--e.g. a comms system or news bbs.)
<--- solo -------------------- troupe --->Are you mostly playing the game by/for yourself, or is it more of a community feel.
MUDs tend to have the dials turned more left.
MUSHes tend to have the dials turned more right.
Code-heavy MUSHes (like Firan) and RPIs have a mix, but slant leftwards.
And you don't have to have one dial for the whole game either. Many games have had some things (combat/space) slant left while others (eating/economy) slant right. Or they have some solo minigames while most of the game is a troupe feel.
So I don't think there's a simple tipping point where something becomes "too MUD" for a player. I think it's a more complex sliding scale of taste. Is the specific combination of dials on a game fun for me?
This is actually a pretty useful explanation for what I'm trying to figure out, a very good way of thinking about it.
@Misadventure said in Differences Between MUDs and Everything Else? (MUSHes, MUXes, etc):
I think its definitely that if there is something you can do alone, or in small groups, in an effective way to pursue tracked character gains based on code you get farming.
For me, so far, the best settings for that where you can also RP are ones where everyone is at an equal level approaching a similar set of tasks that also justifies that level of activity (kill counts). Justifying that level of activity also means something like a war, or easy travel over vast areas. An example might be the video game Destiny.
That pace of activity really sets things apart. Even in a war setting, imagine if I could go out of a Battlestar and kill hundreds of Cylons a day. That would completely undermine the desperation of the staying away from the cylons, and the idea that combat with them was deadly.
A heavily coded but highly deadly roguelike for say WW2 infantry action could be immersive, but not MUD-like.
You could mitigate this somewhat by having encounters not be deadly, for instance they would be social interactions (see the video game a Minuet of Ambition), or by having gains only widen your available options for actions without ever creating a power gap (or an end game that everyone is assumed to be playing at). Again, pacing becomes the issue. And if you limit actions to a few an IC day or week, then they are minigames, not the MUD experience.
These are also a lot of good points. I was thinking about much of this myself. I thiiink what I have in mind will more or less avoid a lot of this, since I've always found power creep shit to be a bit annoying, and I have no desire to have MUD grinding happening.
@Apos said in Differences Between MUDs and Everything Else? (MUSHes, MUXes, etc):
@SparklesTheClown said in Differences Between MUDs and Everything Else? (MUSHes, MUXes, etc):
Like, at what point in a game's design do you think an average MUSHer looks at a game and goes "that's too MUD for me"?
The places a MUSH player will opt are pretty simple but also very dependent on an individual.
a) Something coded in the game that they feel they have to deal with but do not enjoy. Ie, RPI having to eat/drink/sleep or required maintenance tasks.
b) Feeling that they are prevented by coded constraints from roleplaying about something they want to do. This is not necessarily a bad thing, it can be sanity checks and automatic thematic enforcement.
c) Feeling that code is removing their narrative autonomy over a character. In RPIS this is mostly automated actions.I think the most effective trade offs are making interacting with the environment feel rewarding and responsive, and act as thematic reinforcement of what a character is really good at and what they are bad at in regards to the environment. But always making sure it stays true to the character and players aren't forced to handwave things away for narrative ease.
The idea of reward, immersion, and constraints is a pretty useful thing to think about. I absolutely despise eat/drink code and never thought they added to anything. But I think certain code that add to the narrative of the game is definitely useful. Sanity checks is definitely a good example. Having code that pushes narrative rather than hinders or limits people I think is the ideal nuance here.
@krmbm said in Differences Between MUDs and Everything Else? (MUSHes, MUXes, etc):
@SparklesTheClown said in Differences Between MUDs and Everything Else? (MUSHes, MUXes, etc):
Like, at what point in a game's design do you think an average MUSHer looks at a game and goes "that's too MUD for me"?
It's about documentation for me, not about how far something skews in terms of code. That is, typing
kill monster/sword/optional switch/non-optional switchis clunky, but I have no problem doing it to do it is long ashelp killis a useful file. Everything I need as a player should be documented in an easy-to-read help file.Look at Ares for a good example of what I mean. Every command is well-documented, every system and admin responsibility has a tutorial.
Even though coded combat is all about
combat thing1/optionalwtf=thing2/more options=dude for reals, I love playing with it, 'cause I can just typehelp combatand all the commands are right there, or go to /help/combat on the portal. I would never have imagined myself giddily roll-playing my way through scenes, but the documentation makes it easy to turn potentially clunky strings of code into useful RP baubles.If you build it and then document it, people will come, Ray.
While I fully intend to document every command in the game, my aim for this game is for documentation to only be for if you needed. I intend to try and create more of a layer of abstraction than normal, since I think a lot of the way coded things are done is very frustrating. One of the things I hated the most was having to consult like five different documents in MotM just to use the combat system, and even then things were very clunky.
My ultimate code design philosophy will be to code the game for people who aren't coders. I think most MUSHes are coded by people who don't seem to understand that not everyone is a coder. There's so little UX and quality of life things that goes into stuff, so I want to fix that.
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@SparklesTheClown said in [Differences Between MUDs and Everything Else? (MUSHes,
My ultimate code design philosophy will be to code the game for people who aren't coders. I think most MUSHes are coded by people who don't seem to understand that not everyone is a coder. There's so little UX and quality of life things that goes into stuff, so I want to fix that.
I'm not talking about this from the perspective of a coder. From the perspective of a player.
It's really nice that you changed it from
kill blob/sword/strongtokill the blob with a strong attack from the swordor even just click the blob and spam attack, but I still needhelp killsomewhere.
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@krmbm Oh yeah, no doubt about that, I was just saying that I want it to be easier. Like, one or two trips to the help files rather than having it open on a constant basis because the code is so complicated.
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@SparklesTheClown said in Differences Between MUDs and Everything Else? (MUSHes, MUXes, etc):
@Apos said in Differences Between MUDs and Everything Else? (MUSHes, MUXes, etc):
b) Feeling that they are prevented by coded constraints from roleplaying about something they want to do. This is not necessarily a bad thing, it can be sanity checks and automatic thematic enforcement.
The idea of reward, immersion, and constraints is a pretty useful thing to think about. I absolutely despise eat/drink code and never thought they added to anything. But I think certain code that add to the narrative of the game is definitely useful. Sanity checks is definitely a good example. Having code that pushes narrative rather than hinders or limits people I think is the ideal nuance here.
One thing I can't overemphasize enough is how much variance there is here in what players find acceptable or not, it very much is a 'you cannot please everyone' thing. It can be really, really easy to kind of find yourself constantly chasing an implementation that pleases everyone when it doesn't really exist, so I'd focus on what you'd personally find the most fun in terms of sanity checks/thematic enforcement.
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If the RP and organic interactions with other people aren't the focus of the game, I won't play. If the systems overwhelm or prevent that basic focus you'll lose me.
I hated the SW game where I'd ask my little known group, 'hey, you wanna rp?' and they would respond, "yeah, in <insert number> when my shipment is done." That just murdered my desire. I am an adult with a bed time. In the evening I have 3-4 hours tops. If I can't find rp in the first hour, it isn't happening that night.
I'm really mad at myself for letting some of the Arx systems get the better of my rp. I can rp without them, but I got in my own head.
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Back in the midst of the Lockdown, I had a strange fit of nostalgia and decided to go back and play on one of the old RPI MUDs I used to enjoy. I made a relatively quick and simple character and was lucky enough to get in the game within about two or three hours.
What I had not remembered was how difficult it was to find RP on those places—no OOC communication to organise RP, no +where command. You had to either linger in one spot hoping somebody would cross your path or wander the grid until you found someone and then try and fabricate a reason to be there. I used to enjoy it years ago, but now it was positively nightmarish.
I think the beauty of a MUSH is just being able to page someone and go "Hey would you like to go to X and RP about Y" even though a lot of us get in our heads and worry about doing it. It is a big luxury when you try playing without it.
ETA: In a MUSH, you are much freer to direct your own story about your character. In other formats, you are inserted into a world which will dictate a lot of your story for you. Even just in terms of which characters you will meet and what opportunities for scenes you will have.
