@Thenomain I wonder about that. From what I recall of Evennia, part of their pitch includes the fact that the client connection service is separate from the back-end code. At the most basic level, this means you can have a shell open and happily code on the back-end without dropping connections on every change. Now, I'd hope there'd be a better process involved with that, but technically, it just means a coder coding in a different window to the same effect.
They do have placeholders for and a few included inline functions. I suspect if I got involved I would explode that, but I wouldn't want to re-create Mushcode, for obvious reasons.
@Glitch said:
@Thenomain I wonder about that. From what I recall of Evennia, part of their pitch includes the fact that the client connection service is separate from the back-end code.
It's pretty transparent, yeah.
To Thenomain's point, I think the role of a BLDR doesn't have a direct translation from the MUSH paradigm into a Evennia paradigm without some softcode extensions. I'm not sure the best way to tackle that, though -- I don't think there are any games actively running Evennia.
A black book:
ALBUMS CA. AGRIPPA
Order Extra Leaves by Letter and Name
@Reason said:
I don't think there are any games actively running Evennia.
Yeah, but they want active games running Evennia, don't they.
They absolutely do. So much so, in fact, that the last time I visited the community site I saw that they were collectively creating and documenting a game to showcase Evennia.
The core hang-up I've had about it is that there are so many, shall we say, "quality of life" components of a MU* that I've come to expect over the years that someone would need to go and explicitly extend into Evennia.
What would actually be pretty cool is if a bold and intrepid code monkey coordinated a module with the Evennia team to 'MUSH-i-tize' it, to put a number of the common player-based commands in, available out of the box. I.e, To MUSH-Evennia is the product of a core Installation + subsequent MUSH extension.
Presto. Modern MUSH, SQL DB, Django Web framework. Knock yourself out. I mean, doesn't it feel a bit archaic to actually download and use a mush client?
If that ever got off the ground, I'd be happy to contribute to the effort -- I think among the largest barriers Evennia has is player adoption. They certainly aren't running into technical limitations in the near future.
EDIT, Continued
Apologies for the edit -- To continue along the train of thought for BLDRs, though, after some thought I imagine that some straight forward extensions couldn't recreate elements of a BLDR experience similar to the existing experience.
A black book:
ALBUMS CA. AGRIPPA
Order Extra Leaves by Letter and Name
@Reason said:
The core hang-up I've had about it is that there are so many, shall we say, "quality of life" components of a MU* that I've come to expect over the years that someone would need to go and explicitly extend into Evennia.
I love the term "quality of life" to explain this. Thank you for explaining it that way.
I mean, doesn't it feel a bit archaic to actually download and use a mush client?
In the same way that it feels archaic to download an MMO client. So not at all. What I think we miss in the Mu* world is what you do after you download the client. It certainly is yet another step to even see if you want to get involved in something.
I think among the largest barriers Evennia has is player adoption.
I promised @Chime that if she wanted to make a MUSHlike replacement, I would code for it. I'm stuck at the moment, because as of right now I have Volund being excited and exciting about Evennia, and on the other I have the Optional Realities community reps largely being snots hereabouts (my opinionated opinion only). We need more of the former, and less of the latter to get player interest.
I am clearly not a community cheerleader, but I try to make up by creating activity by being active.
I imagine that some straight forward extensions couldn't recreate elements of a BLDR experience similar to the existing experience.
This is, I think, the power of something like Evennia. @Chime mentioned very much the same thing about her imagined MUSHlike, and does if you go back and read everything she's ever said about MOO.
This discussion has digressed a bit. Go Shadowrun, I think!
@Thenomain said:
Without an in-game language, Evennia is a Mudlike and not a Mushlike. It's a Python Mudlike instead of a C Mudlike, which should make it somewhat more accessible to non-coders, but that it's not Mushlike it should make it a hell of a lot more accessible to coders.
Volund and I did kick around some thoughts about this. IMO, until Evennia has an in-game code framework, it's going to be harder to appeal to us Mushers. ("Harder" not meant to imply "no way in hell" but something we'll have to consider in the negative column.)
I say this before diving into the new Mu* platform, but the people I am the most concerned for are the builders, who are not coders but do a lot of code-like, meta-game things. We shall see.
Honestly I've always viewed softcode as a bug rather then a feature. Why would you ever want to insert code line by line through a chat client?
If you're creating a new environment from scratch, why not create a proper interface for building with contextual commands, the ability to preview results before pushing them onto the game etc.
What is obvious to you may not be obvious to me and vice versa.
@Groth said:
Honestly I've always viewed softcode as a bug rather then a feature. Why would you ever want to insert code line by line through a chat client?
Those who publish, win.
If you're creating a new environment from scratch, why not <etc. etc. etc.>
That's something you should ask the Evennia guys. They have an IRC channel and I'm sure they'd appreciate the input. That's the impression I have gotten so far.
Me, I'm not here to imagine the perfect Mu* replacement. I just think that people who don't have access to the server code still need creation tools.
@Thenomain said:
Those who publish, win.
For a second I lost track of myself -- are we discussing tenure or hobbies?
A black book:
ALBUMS CA. AGRIPPA
Order Extra Leaves by Letter and Name
@Reason said:
@Thenomain said:
Those who publish, win.
For a second I lost track of myself -- are we discussing tenure or hobbies?
Aren't we fighting for defining what is acceptable in a fairly academic manner? So yes.
Oh. Whoops! Didn't realize we were fighting.
Also: Uh, shadowrun. Stuff. Here. Totally on topic. Go Shadowrun. And... shouts in the dark!
SHADOWRUN ON BOATS
@Jennkryst said:
SHADOWRUN ON BOATS
I pushed for a Shadowrun: Miami years ago. City, swamp, gators, voodoo, drugs, pirates, glamour. definitely would've been a different flavor.....and pretty awesome.
So I created an account just to reply to this topic, on a couple points.
Shadowrun on boats, yes Miami would be a perfect city for such things. It's got a lot of flooded zones, and with the Everglades I'm sure nasty things can come up with paracritters. Miami is also the 2nd largest smuggling city. It would be fun for anyone, as there is a variety for many things to be done so it would draw interest to all sort of runner types. Not many corp jobs from what I've read, mostly a lot of underground and criminal org stuff.
Los Angeles would be a fun city as well, since it has been flooded, and there are places to treasure hunt in the flood zones, if you can survive the toxins and nasty paracritters that stalk you.
I'm the owner of Deep Shadows. I'm absolutely loving the coding for it, and Python offers so much more of an option that any other code base I've messed with. As far as not having the softcode, that's trivial. There are ways to work around it. They do offer an in game @reload that allows for any new code to replace the old, minus a few things here and there. But if a coding mook like me can learn Python, anyone can.
Do all of this please.
Denver is not an elfbian mafia, if it ever was, then it's been at least 5 years since.
@mouse I think that was a running shadowrun joke on WORA. When I played Sabra on there there wasn't many female elves at all. I think it was a roving clique that rolled up highly skilled lesbian elves, but then it became Asian lesbians...I haven't played there in about seven or eight years and they were gone even then.
I believe Elfbian Mafia comes from the original Shadowrun Seattle MUX. Where a sizable chunk of the Ancients street gang (all Elf) were lesbians, played mostly by guys, for a time.
Later it morphed into the Ancients and the Yakuza fucking each other (not in the rival racist hatred mongering way, but like, PIV way), which was kind of OOCly hilarious.
Just goes to show you that it's not only WoD where people will break every single thematic thing whatsoever to just get it on. 
This would have been in early-to-mid 90s. Yeah, told you I was old.
This means it's probably safe for me to play an Elfbian, again. Tho after Shadowrun Returns, a Dwarfbian sounds mighty nice too.
@mietze Yes, this. Kind of remember it on Seattle, and faintly remember teenage Japanese lesbians (but I remember this on other Mu*) on Detroit, also heard about it on Denver, but never saw it. I think I remember them on a couple of dnd mu* as well.
Thing is just about every game had a "group" of players that played lesbians with other dudes and ran stuff for each other and hid out and ts'd each other....and were totally not gay by doing those things.
@Thenomain I wonder about that. From what I recall of Evennia, part of their pitch includes the fact that the client connection service is separate from the back-end code. At the most basic level, this means you can have a shell open and happily code on the back-end without dropping connections on every change. Now, I'd hope there'd be a better process involved with that, but technically, it just means a coder coding in a different window to the same effect.
