Apr 20, 2016, 1:36 AM
Space Lords and Ladies
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@deadculture Something this complicated will require spreadsheets. I would suggest handling it one of two ways: 1) google docs visible to everyone but only editable by Staff, or 2) actual spreadsheets only in the hands of Staff.
I would under no circumstances allow players to alter the spreadsheets. After all... as has been said: fuckery.
After that, you just have to decide if you want players to be able to watch behind the curtain (1) or have to trust Staff (2).
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@Seraphim73 Then it should be less complicated; spreadsheets aren't going to help making it any more accessible to play the game. It's simply that the first thing he mentioned was about making the game simple, not complicated; he's doing the exact opposite, without even figuring out a system for his game.
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@deadculture Spreadsheets are useful in determining balance and math before you go into coding it, while its in an adjustment and streamlining process. I don't see the problem. I would see the problem if what was shown on those spreadsheets were what I had to deal with in an actual game.
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@lordbelh said in Space Lords and Ladies:
@deadculture Spreadsheets are useful in determining balance and math before you go into coding it, while its in an adjustment and streamlining process. I don't see the problem. I would see the problem if what was shown on those spreadsheets were what I had to deal with in an actual game.
That is what was implied.
I would suggest abstracting the troop numbers without worrying about their statistics, and just providing bonuses for their use situationally. I would also use a RPG system that has mass combat and naval combat already detailed so you can rid yourself of a great deal of work.
And the same RPG systems that have the two things I outlined above LIKELY have estate management, investment and other systems. I don't see a MU working as a strategy game.
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@Misadventure Fading Suns has systems in place to resolve mass combat, 7th Sea has systems in place for naval combat, mass combat, estate management and others. Pendragon had a yearly system for estate management with random event checks.
I haven't checked the Game of Thrones system yet, but that one might have it also.
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@deadculture said in Space Lords and Ladies:
@Seraphim73 Then it should be less complicated
I agree completely. Even as someone who loves spreadsheets (and I'm definitely the type of nerd who loves spreadsheets), I don't think they should be necessary to check balance and do the math for an estate. For tracking estate movies period over period, I think spreadsheets are -fantastic-, but then the players don't need to see them at all, they can stay Staff-side and just be used to keep track of past actions and present circumstances.
Sidenote: the A Song of Ice and Fire system does indeed have an estate management system. It's pretty simple, with just a little bookkeeping for each estate and skill rolls each period. It might actually be pretty good, although the mass combat system is pretty involved (each unit is basically statted like an NPC).
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The best mass battle system I've come across is L5R. It both deals with the meta-battle, and allows the individuals to shine.
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I think people are being confused by 'spreadsheets are bad'. It's not that me and @deadculture are against math or spreadsheets; I'm one of the bigger system nerd types, the guy who writes Monte Carlo simulators to analyze/break these kinds of games.
It's that, again, @Packrat started the thread saying he didn't want to follow SC's mistakes. He is now describing a game that literally mirrors all of SC's mistakes. The 'spreadsheet heavy' phrase is a shortcut here for describing the type of system that SC had, not just spreadsheets in general.
It's kind of bizarre, including the total lack of self awareness.
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So-so, Star Crusade did spreadsheet badly.
I am looking more to the Spreadsheetdom of the Vargo game a couple of years prior, where the economic system actually prompted a fair few people to enthuse about how cool it was on WORA (has anyone ever enthused about any economic system apart from that one or Kingsmouth? I totally plan to keep slimming stuff down and steal from Kingsmouth). That is still spreadsheet land but a much more abstract and easily maintained spreadsheet status.
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Why is there a need for spreadsheets to begin with? Maybe in the design phase, yes, but realistically once you have each unit hammered out as to what it can and cannot do then you can make it really simple:
Unit contains Type and # of forces within, which pulls from a database for each unit and adjusts by bonuses and penalties. Then your code determines which unit was aimed at either randomly or via targeting choice, rolls effect, gets result, modifies Unit #'s as appropriate. Rinse and repeat.
The idea that spreadsheets will be necessary is kinda weird because Space Nobles have tech that practically makes them immune to certain weapons (I read something about immune to kinetic kill weapons, so no bullets, mass drivers, arrows, knives, fists, etc) so if there is no energy weapons in a unit they literally cannot harm that person. They may be able to contain them, maybe... even if it's just stacking bodies up so that as they die they form a wall in a hallway or something.
When dealing with code, it wouldn't be /that/ hard to have a unit roll a number of attacks equal to the amount of troop segments within the unit, resolve them, and continue.
The /problem/ (as I see it) is when you start treating it like a War Game because large scale tactics are practically impossible in this setting. The important pieces are the space nobles and other player characters so focus on the space nobles and other player characters. Abstract the armies to the point where yes, you can get a set defense rating, and an offense rating, along with how much damage they can absorb either from armor or bodies and then you have two numbers that can generally be used as comparison and to /guide/ the narrative.
If one player does something slippery and smart then let that effect the narrative.
Trying to automate all of this... will probably not work in my opinion, for what it's worth.
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@Packrat said in Space Lords and Ladies:
So-so, Star Crusade did spreadsheet badly.
I am looking more to the Spreadsheetdom of the Vargo game a couple of years prior, where the economic system actually prompted a fair few people to enthuse about how cool it was on WORA (has anyone ever enthused about any economic system apart from that one or Kingsmouth? I totally plan to keep slimming stuff down and steal from Kingsmouth). That is still spreadsheet land but a much more abstract and easily maintained spreadsheet status.
This to me sounds like you're just saying 'I want to do the thing I admitted is bad, but well.'
Which, obviously, is a fine goal. I just think it's unrealistic and wonder why you're causing yourself the grief. I mean, don't get me wrong, I'll probably play whatever you come up with, but I foresee the game's trajectory being rather similar to SC: enthusiasm for the fiddly bits -> unbalanced outcomes -> whining -> disenchantment/collapse.
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Edit: Good luck. Godspeed.
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RE: Lithium, that is pretty much what I am proposing already.
An 'Infantry Battalion' is probably something along the lines of three hundred guys with beam rifles plus fifty with heavy weapons and all in space rated body armour, fifty anti grav APCs, a dozen self propelled artillery pieces, a bunch of drones (armed and otherwise), a few dozen sappers and engineers, a small field hospital, etc
This is represented by: Combat Value 3 × Training Value (3 for green troops, 8 for elites)
Their individual weapons do not come up for mass combat, though they might well outside of it.
Nobody though should be in a position where they have to work out what model of hover tank to deploy or what proportion of their Infantry should be armed with rail guns for use against X type of target. Mass combat formations are assumed to be properly armed and this does include anti-Space Noble weaponry (however disadvantaged one might be using it). Even an untrained conscript unit could theoretically hurt anything.
People might have to decide 'do I want troops who are good on planets or troops who are good in space?' but there are deliberate and documented best choices for each option, not a list of complex options which can then be number crunched to find the best result.
What I am looking at doing now is further abstracting things, though ideally leaving enough detail that people can meaningfully talk IC about it.
Fiefs are definitely becoming more granular once I am home.
The main thing I want to concentrate on for now though is how Space Noble society and politics operates in more detail. Once I have player archetypes fleshed out better then it will be easier to work out what to cut.
On which note: Any particular ideas for things people really want to do/be as an Awesome Space Noble? Or really exceptional non Space Nobles who has reasons to interact with continent ruling Space Nobles?
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@Packrat Space Psychic, Space Cyborg, Space Samurai (as in cyberpunk Street Samurais), Space Decker.
Space Janitors.
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@Packrat Having a caste system in which no matter how lowly you were born, if you got the X Gene that makes you genetically compatible with super-psychic-serum or Y-gene especially compatible with advanced-high-tech-cyber-what-not, you are bumped up to pseudo-noble status. You're not a noble, but you due said X/Y you are now thrust into high-caste society. Never to be really accepted, cuz you scum-born, but still tolerated as a semi-peer. I think that could create some fun RP situations.
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