Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game
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@Coin said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
I still think the Five Tribes with old tribes as Lodges is better--especially since some religions/philosophies ARE globe-spanning (Christianity, Buddhism, Islam, Judaism, Shinto, Hinduism--on and on) and the population of the world's werewolves is small in comparison to mortals, so there only being 8-or-so "religions" is perfectly acceptable to me,
That's kind of my point, though. The religions you mentioned (Christianity/Islam/Judaism aside) are all mutually exclusive and all started small and isolated from each other, but werewolves all have the story of Father/Mother Wolf, Mother/Father Luna, and the Firstborn in common in 2.0. It just makes less sense to me that before globalization they'd all share this one myth and form the exact same organizations with the exact same vows.
In the book, after the slaying of Wolf the Forsaken were "scattered to all corners of the earth," but each Tribe's hooks only mention one specific uratha or some small group approaching each Firstborn. It talks about how over time the Tribes spread, but it's not like the other little pockets of uratha died out...? Why would all werewolves everywhere specifically only approach the Firstborn, especially given that the Firstborn weren't exactly fond of them and each Tribe's progenitor(s) had to prove themselves worthy of the patronage? Why not seek out local, cultural spirit patrons?
Maybe I'm overthinking it.
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@Wizz said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
@Coin said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
Maybe I'm overthinking it.I think you are. It's been thousands of years since the supposed origins of the Tribes. It's entirely possible many Uratha never went to any Firstborn, or that they went to other powerful spirits for patronage. But the werewolf population is small, you can't really apply the same demographics to them that we would for humanity. It's perfectly feasible that there were just eight large groups of werewolves who each went to a Firstborn--and then started hunting down the remaining Uratha and either converting them, or eliminating them (depending on the Tribe and, yes, local culture and decisions).
It's also just more simple, and if you're going to customize a large chunk of two games, I think the simpler the better. But that's just me.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
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Hell, you could integrate parts of the question - what actually happened back then? - into your theme or even metaplot. Oral traditions carried by these fucked up enraged half-men over millenia, stories carried through word of mouth probably intentionally distorted to make for better stories or just to fit contemporary agendas and local fueds; the truth may need to be deduced the hard way.
And even so would all tribes or their established leaders want the truth? Again think of real-life religions; if it could be proven that some precious, time-honored events never took place or happened much differently how well would that go over with them?
What I'm trying to say is you don't need to provide such history as the word-from-above actual-way-it-happened anywhere in your theme. It could have been one way, maybe another, who knows any more? And if someone wants to know (and it might make for a good story) then let them earn it. It's worth more in a ST's hands than sitting in a wiki page from day 1.
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You guys make some super valid points and while I still don't personally necessarily agree that the idea of some sort of global prehistoric Werewolf Crusade makes logical sense, and still want to point out that what I'm suggesting is really just cosmetic and the exact same amount of system mechanics work as converting Apocalypse tribes to lodges, I have to agree that based on all of your reactions so far the mental gymnastics most people would have to go through to reach the same conclusions I did doesn't really seem worth it. If the idea doesn't catch and excite people the same way it did me, it's probably not the better route and I will definitely examine Apocalypse Tribes -> Forsaken Lodges instead.
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@Wizz The flipside of it the same argument is that no matter what you choose to go with needs to excite you first and foremost.
If it doesn't then the project will never work. Period. There's no 'right' and 'wrong' about figuring out theme stuff like this, it's just opinions on different takes, but if you don't love what you end up with then stop and see where you took a wrong turn. No MU* can survive its creator's disinterest at such an early stage.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@Arkandel
Eh, like I said man, it was just a first draft. What excites me is the idea of an exclusively-Werewolf: The Forsaken game (with maybe the Changing Breeds too?!) with cool options!^_______^
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@Wizz said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
@Arkandel
Eh, like I said man, it was just a first draft. What excites me is the idea of an exclusively-Werewolf: The Forsaken game (with maybe the Changing Breeds too?!) with cool options!I would legit love a game that operated like WtF but with the larger species spread of Changing Breeds (or rather, the original oWoD Fera, probably), without the werewolves being center-stage.
I mean I know that's not what you're going for, I just remembered an old project. >.>
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
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@Coin - I actually have no objections to that. I legit love some of the Fera and don't really see any reason werewolves HAVE to be in the limelight like they were in Apocalypse. I'd like to see your pitch about converting them to Shadow cosmology dude!
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@Coin I like this as well!
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Basically, i involves dialing things back to a situation more akin to the pre-War of Rage, where the werewolves were actually just one more species of Fera. If we're combining CofD and cWoD, it would essentially be that instead of the Forsaken being the premiere shapeshifters who had a Pangaena ancestor, each of the shapeshifting species would have their own Pangaean ancestor, probably each one of those having mated with the moon (or, in some cases, another large spirit, like Helios, or had absolutely different origins, like the Nagah and their River Kings).
It would essentially present a world where all of the shapeshifting species had their own role, including the werewolves, and they (ostensibly) worked together, etc. Think more Hengeyokai from cWoD, basically. You could even do cool things, where the werespiders and wererats are the ones most pushing to erradicate the Azlu and Beshilu because theys ee it, maybe, as their Pangaean ancestors trying to restructure and reform themselves to take vengeance.
It would be larger in scope. Depending on how it's structured, you can have Auspices remain across the species (Rahu, Irraka, etc.) and apply the species themselves as Tribes (doing away with the Tribes per se and, perhaps, instituting the Pure as an interspecies sort of coalition) which is my personal preference, or you could do away with Auspices and keep the Tribes, giving each species a function and having that take over as Auspices (Uratha are warriors! Nagah are assassins! Nuwisha are teachers! Whatever whatever!) You could also keep Auspices AND Tribes but then you have to buckle down and apply the same for each species, which nnnnnnnnnnnnnnngh that's a lot of work. I guess you could use species as a tertiary axis and just give all of them the same Auspice AND Tribe, but that seems strange (though I can see it working fine with some effort).
Regardless, mechanically speaking, the other species would work the same as werewolves, with different bonuses and different natural abilities, lots of customization via Merits (e.g. instead of giving Nagah AGGRAVATED VENOM from the get go, they need to buy up from a slight paralytic agent that barely slows other shapeshifters down, to something that does outright organ damage on contact). I'd probably keep the bonuses for shapeshifting within the same parameters as the Uratha (i.e. in Gauru they have +8 total in Attributes, so everyone would get +8 to distribute, bonuses to senses might be different sesnes but same bonus, and then some judgment calls for specific things).
For species that have very large differences within the species itself (for example, cats, who can range anywhere from 'lynx' to 'tiger' I would probably do something similar to how the Mokolé were handled, with Merits that can adjust forms to suit whatever the player wants to play.
Depending on how you divide them socially, it can create different viewpoints and relationships to spirits, etc.
I'd also probably definitely bring back the Camazotz, because they're my jam.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
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@Coin said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
You could even do cool things, where the werespiders and wererats are the ones most pushing to erradicate the Azlu and Beshilu because theys ee it, maybe, as their Pangaean ancestors trying to restructure and reform themselves to take vengeance.
I'll tackle the rest of this when I get home, it sounds great so far, but I wanted to say this in particular is a really cool idea! Whenever I think about Fera/Changing Breeds, how they relate to the Hosts is like the first major inconsistency that came to mind. I've often tried to work out how they'd be related and making wererats/werespiders literally the progeny of the Plague King and Spinner Hag is just neat and simple.
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@Coin said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
Basically, i involves dialing things back to a situation more akin to the pre-War of Rage, where the werewolves were actually just one more species of Fera. If we're combining CofD and cWoD, it would essentially be that instead of the Forsaken being the premiere shapeshifters who had a Pangaena ancestor, each of the shapeshifting species would have their own Pangaean ancestor, probably each one of those having mated with the moon (or, in some cases, another large spirit, like Helios, or had absolutely different origins, like the Nagah and their River Kings).
It would essentially present a world where all of the shapeshifting species had their own role, including the werewolves, and they (ostensibly) worked together, etc. Think more Hengeyokai from cWoD, basically.
The one thing I'd want to point out here is that it is a really good idea to keep the "role" thing going, but each one should be revisited. The oWoD Fera and Garou were all united (basically, originally, on paper) under one deity, and she literally gave them their purpose, but in CoD the Uratha have a role because they specifically inherited Wolf's "duty," which was to BE Wolf. S/he was the spirit of the hunt, s/he was literally his/her duty. There is a huge goldmine of unity but also conflict and contradiction there that doesn't have to be driven by jealousy or pride like it was with the Garou, the different Fera could have coincidentally (or intentionally!) just been created to do absolutely opposite things.
This also kinda ties in to how I see the Triat existing in the game, BTW. I don't really want to do the Apocalypse thing and have them be these insane forces spinning out of control and balance. They are not "good" or "evil," they just...are. I think it'd be kind of neat to have each Pangaen ancestor originate from (or be an aspect of) one. Wolf came from the Wyld, Spinner-Hag from the Weaver, Plague King from the Wyrm, just for example.
It would be larger in scope. Depending on how it's structured, you can have Auspices remain across the species (Rahu, Irraka, etc.) and apply the species themselves as Tribes (doing away with the Tribes per se and, perhaps, instituting the Pure as an interspecies sort of coalition) which is my personal preference, or you could do away with Auspices and keep the Tribes, giving each species a function and having that take over as Auspices (Uratha are warriors! Nagah are assassins! Nuwisha are teachers! Whatever whatever!) You could also keep Auspices AND Tribes but then you have to buckle down and apply the same for each species, which nnnnnnnnnnnnnnngh that's a lot of work.
See, yeah, that would be a ton of work, but I LOVE how different auspices were (mostly) for each breed. Sometimes the writers just cheated and copy-pasta'd, yeah, but I think it would really be worth it and extend the life of the game to put the time and effort in.
Regardless, mechanically speaking, the other species would work the same as werewolves, with different bonuses and different natural abilities, lots of customization via Merits (e.g. instead of giving Nagah AGGRAVATED VENOM from the get go, they need to buy up from a slight paralytic agent that barely slows other shapeshifters down, to something that does outright organ damage on contact). I'd probably keep the bonuses for shapeshifting within the same parameters as the Uratha (i.e. in Gauru they have +8 total in Attributes, so everyone would get +8 to distribute, bonuses to senses might be different sesnes but same bonus, and then some judgment calls for specific things).
+1
For species that have very large differences within the species itself (for example, cats, who can range anywhere from 'lynx' to 'tiger' I would probably do something similar to how the Mokolé were handled, with Merits that can adjust forms to suit whatever the player wants to play.
I am definitely in the camp of More Options Are Almost Always Better. I actually love having choice paralysis sometimes when I find a game and get really excited about all the possibilities!
I'd also probably definitely bring back the Camazotz, because they're my jam.
GURAHL/RATKIN 4 LYF
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@Wizz said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
@Coin said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
Basically, i involves dialing things back to a situation more akin to the pre-War of Rage, where the werewolves were actually just one more species of Fera. If we're combining CofD and cWoD, it would essentially be that instead of the Forsaken being the premiere shapeshifters who had a Pangaena ancestor, each of the shapeshifting species would have their own Pangaean ancestor, probably each one of those having mated with the moon (or, in some cases, another large spirit, like Helios, or had absolutely different origins, like the Nagah and their River Kings).
It would essentially present a world where all of the shapeshifting species had their own role, including the werewolves, and they (ostensibly) worked together, etc. Think more Hengeyokai from cWoD, basically.
The one thing I'd want to point out here is that it is a really good idea to keep the "role" thing going, but each one should be revisited. The oWoD Fera and Garou were all united (basically, originally, on paper) under one deity, and she literally gave them their purpose, but in CoD the Uratha have a role because they specifically inherited Wolf's "duty," which was to BE Wolf. S/he was the spirit of the hunt, s/he was literally his/her duty. There is a huge goldmine of unity but also conflict and contradiction there that doesn't have to be driven by jealousy or pride like it was with the Garou, the different Fera could have coincidentally (or intentionally!) just been created to do absolutely opposite things.
Totally. there could be a bunch of reasons why each species does what they do and they could definitely have conflict. And if the purposes of two species conflict with each other, they would need to balance out, come to an agreement, co-exist in a way that is both violent and viable. But that's the job of the players, not the setting.
This also kinda ties in to how I see the Triat existing in the game, BTW. I don't really want to do the Apocalypse thing and have them be these insane forces spinning out of control and balance. They are not "good" or "evil," they just...are. I think it'd be kind of neat to have each Pangaen ancestor originate from (or be an aspect of) one. Wolf came from the Wyld, Spinner-Hag from the Weaver, Plague King from the Wyrm, just for example.
Yeah. Or even the union between one of these three larger concepts and slightly smaller concepts. Wyld plus the conceptual spirit of Hunting could have led to Wolf, etc.
It would be larger in scope. Depending on how it's structured, you can have Auspices remain across the species (Rahu, Irraka, etc.) and apply the species themselves as Tribes (doing away with the Tribes per se and, perhaps, instituting the Pure as an interspecies sort of coalition) which is my personal preference, or you could do away with Auspices and keep the Tribes, giving each species a function and having that take over as Auspices (Uratha are warriors! Nagah are assassins! Nuwisha are teachers! Whatever whatever!) You could also keep Auspices AND Tribes but then you have to buckle down and apply the same for each species, which nnnnnnnnnnnnnnngh that's a lot of work.
See, yeah, that would be a ton of work, but I LOVE how different auspices were (mostly) for each breed. Sometimes the writers just cheated and copy-pasta'd, yeah, but I think it would really be worth it and extend the life of the game to put the time and effort in.
A good compromise might be giving all the species the same Auspices but having write-ups about how each Auspice works differently under each species (sort of the same way as how each Auspice is different under each Tribe). An Irraka werewolf might be different than, say, an Irraka Ratkin or an Irraka Nagah.
Regardless, mechanically speaking, the other species would work the same as werewolves, with different bonuses and different natural abilities, lots of customization via Merits (e.g. instead of giving Nagah AGGRAVATED VENOM from the get go, they need to buy up from a slight paralytic agent that barely slows other shapeshifters down, to something that does outright organ damage on contact). I'd probably keep the bonuses for shapeshifting within the same parameters as the Uratha (i.e. in Gauru they have +8 total in Attributes, so everyone would get +8 to distribute, bonuses to senses might be different sesnes but same bonus, and then some judgment calls for specific things).
+1
For species that have very large differences within the species itself (for example, cats, who can range anywhere from 'lynx' to 'tiger' I would probably do something similar to how the Mokolé were handled, with Merits that can adjust forms to suit whatever the player wants to play.
I am definitely in the camp of More Options Are Almost Always Better. I actually love having choice paralysis sometimes when I find a game and get really excited about all the possibilities!
I'd also probably definitely bring back the Camazotz, because they're my jam.
GURAHL/RATKIN 4 LYF
I actually wrote a Camazotz breedbook like 15 years ago, man. I still have most of it, too.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
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@Wizz I think the hardest thing about each species having its own Auspice is that Auspice Gifts are probably going to be difficult to figure out, especially if each species needs at least 1 for each Auspice. That is, perhaps, my biggest hesitation in this specific topic.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
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@Coin
Do you mean the Auspice Benefits, or the Moon Gifts?The rest of the template is very simple and you could probably mix and match gift lists and auspice skills super easy, but I can definitely see why writing an exclusive homebrew Gift list for each and every one and thinking of a unique exploit that sometimes-is sometimes-isn't even really all that mechanical would be tricky.
Out of curiosity, how hard would it be to go through the old Breedbooks and convert one of those Gift lifts to CoD?
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@Wizz said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
@Coin
Do you mean the Auspice Benefits, or the Moon Gifts?The rest of the template is very simple and you could probably mix and match gift lists and auspice skills super easy, but I can definitely see why writing an exclusive homebrew Gift list for each and every one and thinking of a unique exploit that sometimes-is sometimes-isn't even really all that mechanical would be tricky.
Yeah, beyond tricky, I'd say.
Out of curiosity, how hard would it be to go through the old Breedbooks and convert one of those Gift lifts to CoD?
Not very. they would need adjustments in intensity and whatnot, but not that difficult at all. I would actually be much more interested in mining the Breedbooks for Gift concepts that could be applied to all the species. Shadow Gifts should probably be universal in this hypothetical setting.
"Excuse the hell out of you. He's a bag of dicks. I'm a carefully curated box of cocks." -- to @GirlCalledBlu upon being misrepresented.
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@Coin
Shadow Gifts should definitely be universal, and really just combing through ALL the old books for salvageable bits (including nWoD Forsaken) would probably save us a ton of time, but I ask because I'm pretty sure most of the breedbooks have auspice Gifts, right?Ultimately I have zero problem just moving forward with your suggestion and applying auspice across the board and if you're already feeling like doing the homebrew thing would just lead to burnout I trust your experience, it's a lot easier and straightforward to make cosmetic changes to each auspice (Sun Gifts instead of Moon Gifts, just for the obvious example) but making unique things is something I can't help but be enthusiastic about, haha. I would like to see your Camazotz stuff if you've got it online!
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@Wizz said in Brainstorming: Hybrid/Homebrew Werewolf Game:
@Coin
Shadow Gifts should definitely be universal, and really just combing through ALL the old books for salvageable bits (including nWoD Forsaken) would probably save us a ton of time, but I ask because I'm pretty sure most of the breedbooks have auspice Gifts, right?Yeah, but in general those Auspice Gifts tend to be, IIRC, just sort of all over the place, and a lot of the time it's just 'see X Gift' because they aren't unique. I can look. I think I have all the breedbooks.
Ultimately I have zero problem just moving forward with your suggestion and applying auspice across the board and if you're already feeling like doing the homebrew thing would just lead to burnout I trust your experience, it's a lot easier and straightforward to make cosmetic changes to each auspice (Sun Gifts instead of Moon Gifts, just for the obvious example) but making unique things is something I can't help but be enthusiastic about, haha. I would like to see your Camazotz stuff if you've got it online!
I love making custom content, yeah, but the effort involved does lead to burnout eventually. Sometimes it's just wiser to cut corners.
I'll link you.
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@Wizz Also, one thing that would be made easier by having the Auspices be universal (or close enough) is that if we wanted to add a custom breed (like the Camazotz, or something else) it wouldn't be a matter of creating a TON of new mechanical content. Only, like, half a ton. Heh.
