@ganymede said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:
Pyrephox said this as well, but the path isn't putting up a roadblock to prevent socially-inept people rising to power. And that's what I was getting at, obliquely.
I never said there should be a roadblock. In fact you should be able to claim power through brute force - ranks aren't the sole product of social engineering.
But since you can do so as either Robert Baratheon or Littlefinger, yet being Robert lets you do so and be part of more types of scenes on a day to day basis (since Bobby can be part of diplomatic delegations but Littlefinger can't be part of combat), and as a bonus you are able to bash Littlefinger's head if he pisses you off, yet being Littlefinger gives you very limited venues to fight back... that impacts gameplay. It impacts theme.
And we're not even talking about the social consequences that should be attendant with being a combat monster, generally. No matter how genial Vlad the Impaler might have been in his court, one cannot forget that he was Vlad the Impaler, as reviled as he was feared, as he was beloved in hindsight.
Sure, and that's why Vlad should buy Intimidation. But he also should be an one-trick pony in that regard - sure, he can scare the shit out of people but he can't give a good speech to rouse the troops, tell a good lie, convince someone to make a bad deal thinking it's a good one, etc.
And in a good social system doing such things should have a value roughly equal to impaling people. Else why do the same skills cost the same XP?
@arkandel said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:
Sure, and that's why Vlad should buy Intimidation.
No, that's not what I'm getting at. What I'm suggesting is that a social system consider reputation or renown as a factor. That would give your combat monkeys an "in" when it comes to politics, or a potential bar therefrom, independent from skills but dependent on actions.
Might give them pause from being bullies.
@roz I don't necessarily disagree with what you're saying, but I do want to add that part of the reason people choose fighters is their accessibility to plot. Anyone can sign up for a soldier and do a thing and be involved, but in the Nox'alfar negotiations, only a select number of high-level characters got to be involved in that.
I'm not saying that's a bad thing, or that social plots aren't happening on Arx, they are, I'm just saying that there's a perception that it's harder to get involved in social plots - whether that's true or not.
@lisse24 I don't disagree with the fact that there's a lot more built out codedly to support fighters, and thus people app fighters. That's one of the reasons I'm excited for new social systems! I continued with the Nox stuff mostly because I didn't think it was accurate to characterize it as something that happened super quickly and then was done.
"Only/mostly combat characters get to affect the plot" is just not even true, perceptions aside. I'll be frank, even the most beastly combat characters do not stand a chance in a straight up fight against the outside antagonists of Arx. Even in groups. There are always minions to beat up on, because that's an easy way to get people involved in doing things, and progress can be won or lost in that way. But the PCs of Arx are not in any way remotely equipped to just be like "LET'S TAKE THE FIGHT TO THE CARDIANS", etc.
Like @Sunny, I also play a social powerhouse and have NO combat skills. It takes a bit of effort to work into the metaplot, but I don't feel like that's been a problem, even before Eleyna was a leadership character. I can recognize that others in the same boat might run into difficulty, but I also put out the offer to help change that. I like throwing stuff to do at people.
Also, the metaplot isn't the only game in town. People are doing some remarkably cool stuff right now that isn't directly taking on the Gyre but rather exploring other aspects of the world that's been developed.
I will be totally honest that the Nox'alfar stuff in Alpha/early Beta was the primary reason I lost interest in playing. I finally, with Mason's story and how I got hooked in on Lou, began feeling involved (because my investigations, no matter how hard I worked, never went anywhere)... but Mason's player at the time was good about keeping me in through him. And he was an important hook at the time.
So I thought, yes, I can get involved. Going out there makes sense for Lou. Finally! My character built for adventuring gets to do a thing! She's been sitting around bored, unable to do the thing she's made to do! And then oh, no, we all decided this other character similar to Lou goes instead. Sorry!
Took the wind right out of my sails. I went from 'I am all for this place' to '...oh.' So I really do get why new people are feeling like they'll never be able to find a place to fit in. It was really, really hard even back in Alpha / early Beta if you weren't constantly active / knew the right people.
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
@roz Not exactly what I'm saying? Even in non-coded games, Combat plots are the low-hanging fruit. Anyone can show up to them and Do a Thing. It's easier to pull someone in. In diplomatic/social plots, you usually have to know the right people in order to get involved. It's also easier to keep pulling on the same group of people.
Also, while you can have combats with huge numbers of people, diplomatic/social plots work best in small groups. Which is why I think there needs to be more of them (in general, I've just restarted at Arx again, can't speak to the current state of things) and why a lot of them should probably be low-stakes letting people create names for themselves.
This may already be happening on Arx, I don't know, but again, the problem I'm trying to point out is really unconnected to how coded things are.
@lisse24 said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:
Even in non-coded games, Combat plots are the low-hanging fruit. Anyone can show up to them and Do a Thing. It's easier to pull someone in. In diplomatic/social plots, you usually have to know the right people in order to get involved. It's also easier to keep pulling on the same group of people.
Although I obviously agree with you there I also don't want to blame MU* for this. Look at most published game systems; for something like nWoD, Pathfinder, D&D, etc... how many more pages does social engagement get covered in compared to combat?
It's just the place most of us have 'grown up' seeing as the focus of RPGs. What we're discussing here is more of an evolution of it, specifically geared toward MU* rather than table-top games where that sort of thing isn't nearly as important or even applicable.
@auspice said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:
It was really, really hard even back in Alpha / early Beta if you weren't constantly active / knew the right people.
This likely will always be the case just by virtue of how these things work, especially with the theme of Secrecy on Arx, but it applies everywhere too. I'm a very casual player that only manages a couple of scenes a week usually. Things got put in perspective for me a few weeks ago when people were mentioning their hundreds of clues and how hard it was to manage them while I've been playing for maybe 19-20 months now and have about 25 clues. Clearly, I'm playing wrong, but it also means that I often have no idea where to even begin getting involved with things. The last couple of months I've found the right folks to involve myself with that throw plot involvement my way and it has been some of my funnest times on the game.
@arkandel said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:
Sure, and that's why Vlad should buy Intimidation. But he also should be an one-trick pony in that regard...
Right, but then lower on the grapevine from him, he has suitably diplomatic or socially driven characters. You end up with a dude who is President, that needs someone better equipped to operate behind the scenes and keep things running. The loose info that's given on the system, allows for that. Muscles McWheypowder can still be king or queen. They just have to potentially rely heavily on appropriately skilled people to help keep them there. Which, again, generates RP.
@wildbaboons I had a similar eye-opening moment when during uh, some kind of Q&A session they ran on public channel, @Apos mentioned the (fairly large, though I forget the exact) # of secret orgs. With neither of my characters being in any, it was a little perception-changing.
As a newer player it's of tremendous benefit to have a dino-mentor who can basically hand-hold you through things, share relevant (and sometimes gating) @clues, and so on. I've had help of this kind, although even then it can be hard to stay up to date to the clue-storm. Conversely, most of the times I've discovered anything clue-like through my own action, it's strangely proved to be out of date or hard to act on, and it's usually easier just to go back to those players and tag along on their +crises.
@wildbaboons Your character is an example of a slight tweak in approach, in that the first secret was imo extremely poorly designed on my part and just didn't do anything to connect the character to the plot, so when it made sense to overhaul it we did, and I think it just works better to connect him. There's a number like that, where I just misjudge what I think players might follow up on that doesn't really work out that way, and I'm trying to re-approach them to focus on current issues that can help someone get more immediately involved rather than a very vague, broad scope.
@kitteh I've gotten told that about the ones I got too. People involved with mine and her actions have told me 'Ehh. We're doing something else now. no point in going over what is done.' It's happened to me a couple times from different people. But.. I'm like 'But /I/ have not done anything on this! I want to know more!' but my bit would not question the people.
@icanbeyourmuse said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:
but my bit would not question the people.
Can you as a player not get help from other players to bring you up to speed? Or is the issue that you wanted to RP something that was already resolved by others to their contentment but you're still itching to do something with it? Is this an error of the clue being out of date, or the players moving on?
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
Yeah, in the time I played there, I never got a single clue that wasn't weeks to months old. Made the system useless. It's why I got so '!!!! yay!' when it looked like I was finally going to have a chance to do a thing! and so disheartened when it went to other people. I just found there was really no place for me on the game.
It really is a place best, IMO, for people who have the ability to play every single day (and often many hours in that day) and me with work, school, and often migraines... it just did not suit at all.
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
@thenomain I don't know, really. It's clues and story lines. I just get a lot of 'We're rehashing this stuff.' after a certain point. Because /they/ have the information but /I/ don't.
@auspice You hung out on Lou and kept saying you might be getting to a point soon where you could rp, finally! And then I'd see you on here talking about the four other games you were playing in. Note, that's not a criticism. If arx isn't engaging for a person, it isn't, and that is TOTALLY FINE.
That's the reason we never said anything at the time, even when we discussed activity with you. It's none of my business where someone chooses to spend their time, and I absolutely agree that Arx is a fast paced (too much so, help help) game where those who are more active and engaged are definitely going to get the joy of 'first discovery' on things. But there are new players who do come on and find places and grooves and things to do, and I think sometimes "this just didn't click for me because I was busy with other things" need not be conflated with "new people will never be able to find a place to fit in".
@icanbeyourmuse
So between you and @Auspice and some other hints around the thread, it sounds like among all of the other ten million things that Staff is (impressively!) taking upon themselves, another look at what to do with stale clues maybe should be on the agenda.
WoD games have been here with secret info. We didn't last near this long before the firestorms began, so I'm honestly impressed.
I think, maybe, that some of that stuff isn't as 'out of date' and resolved as people think it is, also. Sometimes PCs think they know/understand more than they actually do. If there's something that really intrigues you as a character, I'd definitely try and pursue it on your own, too - through an action or something. You might find something that surprises you (and other people, too).
@icanbeyourmuse said in Coming Soon: Arx, After the Reckoning:
but my bit would not question the people.
Can you as a player not get help from other players to bring you up to speed? Or is the issue that you wanted to RP something that was already resolved by others to their contentment but you're still itching to do something with it? Is this an error of the clue being out of date, or the players moving on?
