Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.
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On a game I was wizarding on, I ran into a couple at a location called "Door". After I looked, it was an object that they had entered. Described as a door. I very politely asked them to cut it out.
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@Miss-Demeanor said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:
@Thenomain I'm not trying to say it never existed before WoD. Hell, it happened in D&D TT's for years before online gaming was even a thing. But WoD actually thematically allows for creeptastic behavior in an IC sense, A lot of the splats were originally built around being a monster in a world where bad shit happening is a day ending in Y. Rarely have I heard as much squawking about creepy/harassing behavior as I have from WoD games.
I'm going to concur with @Thenomain's conclusion that this is a human-based behavior, and that humans are responsible for their creeptastic behavior.
But I'm going to also agree that WoD/CoD opens the door to the defense that "it's in theme, so you shouldn't stop me." The Sabbat are a good example of this, as are the Crones and Acolytes, in the Vampire world.
The thing is that staff, in the past, have stopped at the books, shrugged their shoulders, and carried on as if it were acceptable behavior.
It's not acceptable.
Even if something is "in theme," staff can and should create an environment that is safe for everyone. If players consent to the creepy shit happening to them, that's fine, but if players are not okay with it, staff needs to step on that shit even if it is in theme.
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In my experience it's not problematic that creepy, rapey stuff happens on WoD games, because as mentioned it is in theme and most players actually like those things as long as they happen in the right context. Quite a few people even enjoy playing with Rex until he starts taking it OOC.
The problem typically is when a player stops caring about if the other players in the scene are having a good time or not. When characters start getting stalked and their players OOCly harassed, when a player constantly makes the scenes about sex, when antagonism is clearly caused by the rejection of their advances.
As a community we need to ensure that we treat eachother with respect, regardless if the game is consent or non-consent you should try telling stories that others can enjoy. It's usually not hard to find players who are into whatever dark things you'd like to inflict so you should never try to force it upon people who don't seem into it. What can make it a difficult judgement on a non-consent game is that there's no shortage of players who simply want to dodge the consequences of their actions but that is also what the fade to black rule is for.
What is obvious to you may not be obvious to me and vice versa.
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@Thenomain said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:
Other people have made the point as well. There was a period where WoD players were particularly pushy about being allowed to do shitty things to other characters, and we did spend a great deal of time trying to find a way to balance IC theme to OOC behavior but here's the thing: We didn't see it that way.
When we started seeing it that way, we cut it out. In the last three to five years, a shitty WoD player is far more recognizable as separate from their shitty WoD character.
Now that there's coffee and some sleep and lucidity, I want to specifically address this, because it deserves to be mentioned.
Having been (referring to myself here) one of the loudest, shrillest, most pig-headed voices re: people behaving like monstrous shits and why it's not cool?
I have seen this change happening.
I have seen the attitudes around this changing.
All you really have to do is look at that example -- a dozen years ago, 'I played romance, she owes me TS!' was an actual argument to be had -- to see that things are changing in this hobby, and they're changing for the better in a number of ways on this front especially.
That deserves much more recognition than it actually gets.
Responses to things, action on things, are not always perfect, but that people's eyes are opening to some of the actual problems and viewing them as such is exactly why I posted this in the first place -- namely, we're not the only community that's struggling with it. It's worth looking at how other communities address it (even if I don't think their answer is necessarily one we could implement in the same way, there might be something about that approach that will inspire an idea here for folks to run with, etc.).
Also: having talked about this stuff with @Thenomain specifically from time to time when these issues have cropped up: dude, thank you for taking them seriously. It counts for a lot, and you deserve to hear it -- out loud, and in public. Even if we have different ideas of what to do about any given thing sometimes, that there's an understanding that something should be done at all? That's... actually a pretty huge milestone, should not be overlooked. It's one the community seems to be taking to heart, and taking seriously.
As much as I get frustrated and grouchy with this hobby and the community from time to time, on the whole? I'm pretty proud of the collective 'us' on this front, and there's good reason for it.
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I was tea-bagged in Halo.
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@Groth said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:
In my experience it's not problematic that creepy, rapey stuff happens on WoD games, because as mentioned it is in theme and most players actually like those things as long as they happen in the right context. Quite a few people even enjoy playing with Rex until he starts taking it OOC.
Many creeps are excellent roleplayers. No one accused Juerg of not being able to pose well. That's not his problem.
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So I got food poisoning last night, so this might be even more rambly than usual.
I started RPing...does stealing my dad's D&D book to teach myself to read count? I'm on only child so... I watched dad play games on the Commodore and in Jr. High and High school during lunch and weekends and such. And those guys spoiled me because while they thought it was cool I played, but not because I was a girl. But they were my alternate big brothers so sex was never a thing for me. So honestly OMG a girl was a bit of a shock for me.
I very much believe in equal pay for equal work. And I think that's why bikini streamers bother me so much; as much as I go on and on about being a bad player, I'm not really that bad otherwise I wouldn't have the subs that I do, my voice is nowhere near that sexy. But most of these women really are bad. They get the subs, sure because people want to oogle them and I mean people pay monthly subscriptions to see their content, not just people subscribed to the channel. You could argue that they put in just as much work as normal streamers. And a 5'2" woman who can barely lift a bag of potatoes is probably going to do more work than a 6'2" walking block of muscle fireman - and in this case I think she should be paid just as much as the man. But gaming is the work, and they just don't do it.
It just makes it harder for women who just want to be gamers. Or... women online really. I'm not knocking sexuality, I'm knocking the women who use that sexuality because all it does is make it okay for other people to treat other women like that. Like the example above about TS and owing... I have had multiple people ask me if Theno and I were dating, because we've recorded some videos together. More recently I've been asked if I'm dating one of my Twitter followers because he likes every tweet I do. Mostly "Hey, check out this video!" tweets, but the occasional random thing too.. He's also a gamer and we haven't recorded anything yet - and now I'm a little afraid too because that might be like a proposal or something at this point.
I'm a gamer. I can game without having a boyfriend who got me into gaming. When I played tabletop I was usually the only girl there, but I was never there because I was the GM's girlfriend. I saved up the 5k gold I needed for a flying mount without having to fuck anyone to do it. I should be able to play a female character and not have complete strangers want to TS me because I'm a female behind the screen or whatever. And things have gotten better. The best way to fix it as a group though is basically what has been done; The non-dicks need to stand up and say that it isn't okay. That it won't be tolerated. Teach your sons not to be dicks! I mean really, we're all of an age now. Some of us have kids. If you don't want it to be an issue, on the street or in VR, teach them that it's wrong. That it's wrong to treat women that way, and that it's wrong to let others think it's okay to treat women that way.
TL;DR Thanks guys who aren't dicks for not being dicks. Keep it up!
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@Tyche Git Gud.
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@Insomnia said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:
Like the example above about TS and owing... I have had multiple people ask me if Theno and I were dating, because we've recorded some videos together. More recently I've been asked if I'm dating one of my Twitter followers because he likes every tweet I do. Mostly "Hey, check out this video!" tweets, but the occasional random thing too.. He's also a gamer and we haven't recorded anything yet - and now I'm a little afraid too because that might be like a proposal or something at this point.
I've liked your posts before. Does that mean we're married now?
This is really going to complicate my taxes.
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To be fair Theno told me he was also asked the same thing when he linked a video we did to someone so she could hear his voice, but I think that was because I had told him it had happened to me because it's happened more than once. The tweets thing is more weird because we haven't recorded together, but I was also asked if he was a bot or something at first. Because apparently a guy just can't like a thing a girl does or something.
Seriously not even getting into the comments about the group I game with which is 3 guys of which two of them tease the other one because he has a crush on me and won't admit it. Apparently I'm dating them all. Even though they are all cousins. And two of them (the teasers) frequently get asked to have threesomes. It's complicated.
You haven't liked every post though, so maybe Common Law? It has been more years. I dunno, does that affect taxes?
I have said it before but I have to say it again though, my moderators are gentlemen, they shut that down usually faster than I an see it if it happens when I'm streaming. The questions usually come to my in box though. Between that and the Youtube searches people get to my channel (naked earthbound, tentacle sex) it can get pretty weird, I honestly hope it never gets to a point I feel so uncomfortable by it that I don't stream / Let's Play anymore, because I like streaming dammit. And I realize by putting myself out there, I'm opening myself up to it, but it should never ever be something I should have to worry about. It is though, always in the back of my mind a little bit.
Thankfully it's not a constant thing and I get accused more of having a crush on Mike from Until Dawn than I get asked if I'm sleeping with a guy because we are friends and enjoy the same things.
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@Insomnia said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:
You haven't liked every post though, so maybe Common Law? It has been more years. I dunno, does that affect taxes?
That's how you can tell it's a real marriage. If you always agree with your spouse and like everything they do you're either newlywed or there's something seriously wrong there.
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@Insomnia said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:
It just makes it harder for women who just want to be gamers. Or... women online really. I'm not knocking sexuality, I'm knocking the women who use that sexuality because all it does is make it okay for other people to treat other women like that.
While I've never spent any non-trivial amount of time watching the boob-window streamers (I mostly watch high level hearthstone or Lirik when he's playing story games) I think it's worthwhile that only part of the Twitch audience is about watching the game being played as such and a significant part is about enjoying the personality.
For instance I've spent many many hours watching Amaz simply because I find him very entertaining and TotalBiscuit regularly scores a very healthy amount of viewers even though noone would accuse him of being good at most of the games he plays.
I don't think there's anything wrong with these ladies producing content that they've found an audience for and I suspect desperate people online would remain just as desperate even if they stopped.
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A lot of them don't play though, it's them twerking over footage or "If I hit 100 followers on this stream I will kiss this other girl!"
Personality is why most people watch Let's Plays and the like. Sure someone might be stuck and looking for help. Or they might be interested in the game, but not enough to pay for it. Most of their personality is Tee hee! Looks at me! I'm a girl and I'm gaming!
Sure they can produce content, but it's a bait and switch. And it's a problem when they do this and other people go into a channel and expect the same thing simply because you are female and a lot of females do it.
That's what my issue is with. Because if that's what people expect, they think it's okay to demand it, and they are assholes when they don't get it.
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Kind of a vicious cycle though. If people didn't consume that no one would sell it, and if we didn't societally treat women as advertising it probably wouldn't occur to anyone to play topless Counterstrike on camera or whatever.
I mean the commodification of interaction with people online is clearly the issue behind a lot of the harassment problems we have as a community but I don't know what the solution is. Besides calling it out when we see it and treating it as not okay, I guess.
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I think the responsibility of a man behaving like Creepy McAssface resides with that man, not the women in bikinis he may have watched beforehand.
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Twitch IS trying to curb it, at least. No nipples on a live person for anyone! Doesn't matter if it's legal for you to go topless down the street, if you have nipples, you can't show them on screen.
Which has been sending people to Youtube. Only Youtube has a vague no partial nudity rule. Also no profanity, or sexual innuendo as part of the ToS. So in theory people could complain if they are offended by it. And with this new Youtube Heroes thing it could get... internesting.
(Pixilated nipples are okay on Twitch though, so long as they aren't the focus of the game.)
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@Insomnia said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:
Twitch IS trying to curb it, at least. No nipples on a live person for anyone! Doesn't matter if it's legal for you to go topless down the street, if you have nipples, you can't show them on screen.
Which has been sending people to Youtube. Only Youtube has a vague no partial nudity rule. Also no profanity, or sexual innuendo as part of the ToS. So in theory people could complain if they are offended by it. And with this new Youtube Heroes thing it could get... internesting.
(Pixilated nipples are okay on Twitch though, so long as they aren't the focus of the game.)
American censorship policies in regards to human bodies has never impressed me. I'd rather the viewers themselves decide what they want to watch.
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@Groth I agree, if someone wants to watch nipples they should be able to watch nipples, maybe put it behind a wall so that kids can't watch nipples. But at least they are banning all nipples and not just female nipples. coughfacebookInstagramcough
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On one hand, tits for a mount fucking drives me nuts. That some chicks use sex appeal instead of something else in any of my hobbies, because it perpetuates a big problem, right?
On the other hand, I think their ability to do so should be their choice. That they SHOULD totally be able to do it, and why the fuck should anyone judge them for it.
If we are going to be feminists (so to speak), we need to support the sex kittens just as much as the housewives just as much as the squarepants brigade.
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@Sunny For me it comes down to the whole equal pay for equal work thing. If my work is gaming, then those women if they aren't gaming, just shaking it in front of a game aren't doing equal work.
Plus Twitch does a lot more than just gaming now. If I were a baker and I showed people how to bake on screen, I would be just as pissed if someone in a bikini just stood in front of a cooling cookies and called herself a baking channel.
