Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.

[Insomnia]

I think part of the problem with men who are a problem to women online is wish fulfilment, and they might not even know it. Because at the end of the day it's anonymous. There is also a novelty to it, which is silly. Woman as gamers make up something like 48% of gamers, and i'm not even thinking about mobile games. We're out there but we hide so it seems like there aren't any. But they aren't told any better. Or they are given examples of how it's okay.

And then you have the guys like Rex who are just assholes and actively seek out women to treat badly, because they are assholes. It's separating the two that is the issue. And really that shouldn't be up to the woman who is being bothered to sort it out. The problem is that unfortunately the real problem is that women generally don't feel comfortable being able to say no which... I don't know how we can fix that. It's easy enough to say "well speak up." but yeah... my last relationship it would have been easier had he hit me. I could have easily left. Sometimes speaking up just doesn't feel like an option. or even worse doesn't even register as an option.

How to fix it? Don't be a dick. Everything would be so much easier if everyone was just Excellent to each other.

[Pyrephox]

@Arkandel said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

@surreality said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

I do like how KD's wiki and some other L&L games mention relationship status. Something in prefs/etc. could mention this sort of thing as well.

That's pretty much what I had in mind. I don't know if it will do much but I'm trying to think of a way out of this really bizarre situation, where sex/relationship based games like Shang or KD seem to do way better on the harassment front than MU* where such things aren't thematically emphasized.

Couple of different things.

One, in a sex game, it is expected and encouraged for people to contact others regarding getting sex, so it's a lot easier to be forthright about it. You don't have to wade through the indignant, "That's not what my intentions were" and "I was just being friendly!". On a sex game, you know what you're there for.

Two, most sex games don't penalize you for not playing with a particular person. If I block someone on Shang, this will have no impact on my play experience, directly on indirectly. There's no chance of them ending up as my boss, or as the person holding the One Vital Clue that I need to make my character effective. Sandbox games can afford to have policies that just say, "If you want to block someone completely, do it. If they try to override a block in any way, the hammer comes down," without having to worry about, "okay, we've got to organize a whole game battle scene, where the three most notorious creeps on the grid somehow got ahold of the Important McGuffin, and now everyone HAS to cooperate with them."

[Arkandel]

@Pyrephox said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

without having to worry about, "okay, we've got to organize a whole game battle scene, where the three most notorious creeps on the grid somehow got ahold of the Important McGuffin, and now everyone HAS to cooperate with them."

You know, that's a fair point.

I wonder if it's a coincidence or at least unrelated to the conversation, but players who are the most notorious about going aggressively after female characters seem to be otherwise very active (some seem to be on 24/7, wtf man... I wish I could play games that much) and have a finger in every plot-pie out there. In a way that makes them both gateways to RP, making it useful to be in their good graces since they can pull you in, but also means avoiding them comes at a price.

That's not a problem code can solve. And staff have historically been very prone to undereacting to reports by players, assuming players were either being drama queens or trying to avoid the consequences of their actions rather than blame the person responsible for it.

No joke, either; back in Juerg's day a player he chased off HM, and a good friend of mine, was specifically told she could avoid all the massive IC witchhunt against her if she slept with him. She was told this openly. Staff sided with him, how dare she try to dodge roleplay? So... I don't even.

[surreality]

@Insomnia said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

It's separating the two that is the issue. And really that shouldn't be up to the woman who is being bothered to sort it out.

I was mentioning in a PM convo something along these lines. If it wasn't for the fact that I know for certain that the player who did it has serious social... we'll just politely call them 'challenges', I would have read them the riot act rather than just be creeped out and resolve to never, ever engage the player again save for in a staff/professional capacity.

A character I was playing had been in two scenes with this dude, both of which involved philosophical discussions with precisely ZERO flirtation of any kind. My character was deliberately gawky, awkward, and non-sexy. She was a frumpy, socially awkward, librarian with a temper. (So hawt, right?) No flirtation or playfulness at all OOC with the player in conversation, either. Anyway, fast forward a few weeks, and my character is on +where as being in a bedroom with someone. Whether they were using the bed or not is sorta irrelevant, because we all know that's what everyone assumes the moment they see 'bedroom', and that particular stupidity is a stupidity to rail against at some other time; the only relevant thing here is: the assumption is definitely there.

This dude pages me and my RP partner, and asks him if he'd like any help in there with my character.

...

Yeah.

He clearly thought this was completely acceptable behavior, rather than being supremely gross on more levels than I can count without resorting to rabid frothing.

If I didn't know this dude has the social skills of a rotting turnip, that frothing would have emerged to drown that guy in enough foam to make it look like somebody took a fire extinguisher to his dumb ass.

[Ganymede]

@surreality said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

Anyway, fast forward a few weeks, and my character is on +where as being in a bedroom with someone. Whether they were using the bed or not is sorta irrelevant, because we all know that's what everyone assumes the moment they see 'bedroom', and that particular stupidity is a stupidity to rail against at some other time; the only relevant thing here is: the assumption is definitely there.

I used beds quite often, until someone pointed out that they'd probably do lethal damage if inserted rectally.

[Pyrephox]

@Arkandel I'll throw another thing out there, specifically regarding WoD/CoD:

Sexual harassment and assault are written both explicitly and implicitly into the setting and system, which makes it more attractive for harassers. Explicitly, in powers and mechanics (no, not seduction rolls, but straight up 'you can change the desires of this target to what you want' or 'this person is devoted to and obsessed with you regardless of their true emotions about the matter'. And implicitly, in the whole "you are the monster" schtick which an unfortunate number of players take as license to let their ids run wild with the excuse of, "It's not the World of Happy Kittens!" And, from a strictly IC point of view, it's hard to argue that pretty much any CoD vampires, for example, would view hitting a human with a mind-altering power, then taking them home and drinking their blood while having sex with them as "bad" rather than as "Tuesday". So when a PC vampire attempts to do the same thing to a PC human, it CAN be a perfectly IC thematic action, while also being unwanted OOC harassment.

And people are generally bad on games about dealing with that.

[surreality]

@Pyrephox If I could upvote this post three hundred more times, I would. Everybody please upvote this post? This post deserves so many more upvotes than my meager account can give it. Because holy hot damn is that truth.

People like to forget, often, that in the atmosphere for which the system is written -- a table, in the flesh, where people are visible and invited into someone's RL space and in punching and/or dice-throwing range -- these things are used on NPCs, and not fellow players. The shit people try to get away with online would never fly at any table I've ever seen.

[Pyrephox]

@surreality It is one thing that has always bothered me about WoD games. "Playing the monster" is not a bad thing - in fact, you can get some great, intense, fun, and also thoughtful experiences out of exploring what that means.

But WoD is not meant to be played with a random collection of internet strangers, and when it comes to making a space where everyone can play and have fun, it doesn't do it well, especially in the hands-off mindset that a lot of staff have. It's meant to be played among a small group of people who have agreed to the rules and assumptions of the campaign - if you're going to be full-blown horrific monsters, then everyone's on board with that, and you're probably going to be laughing as you stab each other in the back.

WoD/CoD isn't really even meant for PvP. All of those horrific, decadent elders/fun police/betrayers/etc aren't really meant to be the default PC. The default PC is the young convert, with their humanity still fresh in their minds, trying to buck the system as much as they can without getting horribly murdered. Those elders, etc, are the default /antagonists/, which is why the setting is built to make them horrible. Blood and Smoke is even explicit about this when they talk about the Laws: The Laws are literally written to be kinda stupid so that PCs have ample reason and opportunity to break them and create dramatic plot by doing so. They are NOT meant to be something that actually works and creates a stable and functioning society.

The mechanics are not written with an eye to using powers and skills on other players, and sure as hell aren't balanced for it. Even CoD, which has tried to make steps in this direction, simply isn't very good at making PvP an enjoyable experience for everyone concerned, and still has a huge amount of wiggle room for plausible deniability "I'm just playing to theme" when it comes to being a skeevy horrible harasser to other people.

Does this mean you can't have a respectful MU* set in the World of Darkness? No. But I will say that I think it takes a lot more thought and intentional management than it does in some other worlds and systems. And that very few games put that thought and intentionality into it.

[Arkandel]

@Pyrephox said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

Does this mean you can't have a respectful MU* set in the World of Darkness? No. But I will say that I think it takes a lot more thought and intentional management than it does in some other worlds and systems. And that very few games put that thought and intentionality into it.

Make it consent-based. Done fixed.

[Pyrephox]

@Arkandel said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

@Pyrephox said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

Does this mean you can't have a respectful MU* set in the World of Darkness? No. But I will say that I think it takes a lot more thought and intentional management than it does in some other worlds and systems. And that very few games put that thought and intentionality into it.

Make it consent-based. Done fixed.

Nope.

Functionally speaking, many games do operate on a loosely consent based system when it comes to the direct use of mind/personality-altering powers on other PCs. This does not stop harassment, or social pressure to agree to have your PC so altered, and it can, in fact, make the problem worse. Because obviously you agreed to become that PC's ghoul, so you should have realized that she'd use her power to loan your character out to her sadistic friends. After all, ghouls are furniture, and if you didn't want to be furniture, you shouldn't have played a ghoul.

EDIT: Note, I'm picking on ghouls not (just) because of my egregious dislike for Vampire, but because it's one of the starkest examples of places where the system and setting are explicitly written to be /rapey as hell/, with plenty of room for crossover from IC assault to OOC harassment, AND there's not really any way to stop an average human from being ghouled if a vampire wants to ghoul them, so the PC's IC defenses are very limited.

[Miss Demeanor]

WoD/CoD games are definitely the frontrunner for creeptastic happenings. Because yes, its written into the system for said things to happen. What makes it an issue is that despite all the policies and statements and assurances that you as a player can totally choose to FTB and simply work out the aftermath OOCly, or if the harassment is OOC that you can always leave the scene/room/etc., complaints are rarely taken as seriously as they should be. Now, I feel the responsibility for this needs to be shared amongst staff and players. For the staff that do care and want to help... they'll never know something is wrong if people don't say anything. For the players (like myself) that are jaded and cynical and think nothing will come of it? That's been earned through hard experience of exactly that happening. Not just once or twice, but over and over again.

Hunter sphere on FC is suffering this right now. There is a single player that is so obnoxious, annoying, harassing, and otherwise assholish that he has single-handedly managed to largely kill the sphere. Why? Because he's always there. He's the first to jump into an event when it goes up, he's constantly on channel... and nobody wants to have to deal with him anymore. But... so few people are willing to speak up about his behavior that staff response probably seemed non-existent to the players. So there's staff, thinking things must be fine since nobody's complaining... and there's the playerbase thinking that saying something won't matter because staff didn't appear to do anything to him the first time around. It becomes a perpetual cycle that kills the sphere for everyone. Plot quickly dried up since the plot runners never wanted to have to deal with him more than once but nobody felt they were allowed to kick him out of their PRP's. Without plot, RP quickly fell to the BaRP curse as people got tired of socializing and just drifted away to other spheres or even other games. Now the channel is often silent since nobody wants to have to hear X trumpeting about all the time, RP is scarce and is often just '3 people in a private room' type of RP for fear that a public scene will draw him out, and players are getting frustrated and/or leaving more easily/often.

So yeah, the harassment thing is kinda a double-edged sword. Yes, there needs to be staff willing to take action against these types of players. But first there still needs to be players willing to stand up and say something. And not just once, either. We kinda have to accept that most types of general harassment or asshole behavior will be dealt with in the '3 strikes' format. So every time this person acts out, it needs to be documented and spoken out about (in proper format), so staff can take the proper steps. And keep in mind, I am not staff on FC (I was actually turned down when I applied to help out), and I am one of the people that largely drifted away because I removed myself from the situation rather than wait for other people to speak up about it as well.

[Thenomain]

@Miss-Demeanor

Just to note: Before WoD, creeptastic things were going everywhere. Yes, creeps landed on WoD because "It's theme! You can't stop me! You're not my mom!", but there were no shortage of asocial college age ignorants trying to understand what growing up was all about.

Just sayin'.

[Arkandel]

@Miss-Demeanor Although I agree with what you're saying, I don't see why WoD somehow forces staff to turn a blind eye on the things which are reported to them.

(I would never blame them for not doing something when people keep mum about them. Staffbits don't grant telepathic powers)

[saosmash]

Literally nothing has made me want to try out WoD less than reading this thread. I mean, damn.

[Sunny]

The only genre I've ever played that this wasn't an issue was...

...no, wait. There isn't one. It's definitely not just a WoD issue.

[saosmash]

I've played on several games where this was not an issue, but they were games that were 90% female by player population.

[Miss Demeanor]

@Thenomain I'm not trying to say it never existed before WoD. Hell, it happened in D&D TT's for years before online gaming was even a thing. But WoD actually thematically allows for creeptastic behavior in an IC sense, A lot of the splats were originally built around being a monster in a world where bad shit happening is a day ending in Y. Rarely have I heard as much squawking about creepy/harassing behavior as I have from WoD games.

@Arkandel WoD doesn't force anything, and nowhere did I say OR imply that. Staff not doing anything about it seems more a symptom of the 'different game, same people' thing. Same staff that ignore shit on this game were the same people ignoring shit on the last game and will probably be the same people ignoring shit on the next game. Nor am I blaming them for not doing something when nobody's talking. I'm blaming the players for not saying something to get staff in gear. Or at least to be able to say 'well we've put in complaints against X here, here, and here and still nothing is being done about it'. At that point (and only that point), will it become an issue of staff not doing anything. The situation I mentioned specifically? That's on the players refusing to say anything. If they thought that a single instance of complaints was going to be enough to boot a first-time offender from a sphere/game? They're being intentionally obtuse. Because again, 'different game, same people'. They should know better by now.

[Thenomain]

@Miss-Demeanor

Other people have made the point as well. There was a period where WoD players were particularly pushy about being allowed to do shitty things to other characters, and we did spend a great deal of time trying to find a way to balance IC theme to OOC behavior but here's the thing: We didn't see it that way.

When we started seeing it that way, we cut it out. In the last three to five years, a shitty WoD player is far more recognizable as separate from their shitty WoD character.

Where I'm playing now (Fallen World), there are a lot of questionable characters but they're not being portrayed the stereotypical PvP-oriented WoD player of the days of yore, the issues you're bringing up. We—you, me, others here, people who don't read these boards—have pushed even a modicum of empathy.

You know what other online game group is stereotypically shitty about understanding the other players? MUDders. I have seen almost as much bad behavior out of this game style as I have out of any WoD game.

I'm not saying this to shame any of the reasonable MUD-centric people on these boards, but to point out that confirmation bias is real, and it has kept me away from MUD-likes for decades.

---

None of this having to do with VR. Just people.

[Insomnia]

@surreality said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

Too many people will assume someone is still 'open for business', simply not give a shit, start talking smack about the partner/start trying to undercut the partner, or spout the 'you are not poly-friendly and therefore you are an inferior monogamous being, I will liberate and enlighten you with generous applications of my ginormous dong!' bag of bullshit.

Your kink is not my kink, therefore you are wrong!

[Insomnia]

@surreality said in Harassment in VR, there's something we can likely learn from this.:

Anyway, fast forward a few weeks, and my character is on +where as being in a bedroom with someone. Whether they were using the bed or not is sorta irrelevant, because we all know that's what everyone assumes the moment they see 'bedroom', and that particular stupidity is a stupidity to rail against at some other time; the only relevant thing here is: the assumption is definitely there.

If I ever finish my game, I'm going to convince the coder to make unfindable say Bedroom. Sure it'll catch some people trying to dodge creepers, but I think it would be over all funny.