Feb 26, 2018, 11:07 PM
@wretched Yeah, and how much of it gets used on a regular basis?
Visit Fallcoast, sponsored by the Fallcoast Chamber of Commerce
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@wretched Yeah, and how much of it gets used on a regular basis?
He/Him
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@tinuviel said in Visit Fallcoast, sponsored by the Fallcoast Chamber of Commerce:
@wretched Yeah, and how much of it gets used on a regular basis?
All a grid needs:
- 'Districts' to represent the city.
- Notable locations (bars, shops, university, sphere hangouts, etc.)
- Player builds
Big sprawling grids just lead to people getting lost and feeling overwhelmed.
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
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@auspice Ayup. Temprooms are a thing for anything else.
He/Him
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That is something I actually disagree with, pretty vehemently. A small grid I feel is detrimental when trying to represent a large city and a sprawling wilderness. it makes things feel cramped and small. Could you imagine logging into a popular videogame and being like "Well Geralt, here's yer lobby, there's no real adventure, just imagine it's wide open space, go click that button there when you want to fight the next monster and we'll make a little room for you. Oh that other room? That's Novigard, I know it's just a refrigerator box but if you use yer imagination it's bigger, have fun."
Using Fallcoast as an example, people were told time and again that Fallcoast was a large city, the size of Nashville or larger, yet time and again people thought it was a small town, it has like 6 grid squares, it's teensy.
Wilderness? Well my PC is supposed to live super deep in thew woods away from everyone, yet there are 15 other builds on the same grid square. yeah people can 'use their imagination' but there is still a weird feeling of being crowded in.
What about Territory for things like Werewolves? Well my pack controls... the second paragraph of this grid room description because this single grid room is supposed to cover 20000 houses like 500 blocks of real estate? (Hyperbole I know)
The argument that a large grid is 'overwhelming' is flimsy and assumes that looking at a +map that is more than 10 square will brake a MUers feeble mind. My first MU had a fairly large grid and there was public RP all the time the fact that this is rare these days is more of a cultural shift than 'big gridz', not to mention we have +travel systems to get around.
This is a grid were planning to use for years, giving people room, and options isnt going to hurt anyone.
In the end, We Tried a 'small grid' and we didnt like it. Were going for bigger this time.
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To paraphrase someone (and I don't really know who) a grid should be as large as it needs to be and no larger.
I actually find the size of the grid for Fallcoast comfortable. I wish there were things that were done to help establish some physical scale (how big a is the A02 grid, just roughly? Because if it's a single city block then yes, the city is damn small. If it's roughly 16-20 city blocks then you're probably looking at a reasonable sized city) but that's sort of a side issue. Yes, the grid squares got a little cramped with all the businesses leading off of them but already the occurrences of accidentally running into other characters on the grid wasn't very high. Spreading out to an even larger grid would have made than happen even less.
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@wretched said in Visit Fallcoast, sponsored by the Fallcoast Chamber of Commerce:
yeah people can 'use their imagination'
Using your imagination on a text based game.
How novel.
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
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@auspice said in Visit Fallcoast, sponsored by the Fallcoast Chamber of Commerce:
@wretched said in Visit Fallcoast, sponsored by the Fallcoast Chamber of Commerce:
yeah people can 'use their imagination'
Using your imagination on a text based game.
How novel.
That's kind of unnecessary. @Wretched isn't alone in being a player who uses grids to get a sense of space and geography for a MU*'s setting. I mean, yeah we can all use our imaginations, but we still use character sheets and have files about setting and theme to give structure to a game. A grid's size and structure informs how players understand the setting. Yes, grids can totally be too big. They can also be too small, and temprooms aren't a viable replacement for an actual grid for a large number of players.
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@wretched said in Visit Fallcoast, sponsored by the Fallcoast Chamber of Commerce
All the spheres will remain save Promethean
Well now I'm sad. Promethean was the reason I gave Fallcoast a chance in the first place. Why is it being removed from the new version?
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@roz said in Visit Fallcoast, sponsored by the Fallcoast Chamber of Commerce:
@auspice said in Visit Fallcoast, sponsored by the Fallcoast Chamber of Commerce:
@wretched said in Visit Fallcoast, sponsored by the Fallcoast Chamber of Commerce:
yeah people can 'use their imagination'
Using your imagination on a text based game.
How novel.
That's kind of unnecessary. @Wretched isn't alone in being a player who uses grids to get a sense of space and geography for a MU*'s setting. I mean, yeah we can all use our imaginations, but we still use character sheets and have files about setting and theme to give structure to a game. A grid's size and structure informs how players understand the setting. Yes, grids can totally be too big. They can also be too small, and temprooms aren't a viable replacement for an actual grid for a large number of players.
They're the one that began the argument that you can't get the concept of a large city without a large grid.
If a grid is too large, I can't set foot onto it. I can't find my way around. And you know what happens on every fucking game I have ever been on with a big grid?
'Let's RP.'
'OK.'
'Any ideas where?'
'No, I have no idea where anything is.'
'Me either.'
Commence never RPing because either we'll wander aimlessly and end up hopelessly lost or we'll be too intimidated to find anything.And no, +hangouts doesn't work, because I've yet to see a game ever keep it updated. Oh, let's go to X loca- nope, doesn't work. What abo- nope, that's not there anymore. And the last game I was on with +travel, the locations rarely actually took you to the location +travel said it would.
So yeah, I'll stick to a smaller grid that makes sense and temprooms to flesh out the locations I need as I need them. Instead of 10+ Street A, Street B, Street C, Street D... per... right, district.
How the fuck often do people actually RP on the street anyway?! If in part because it gets old seeing people zip on by as they wander hopelessly lost.
<OOC> Sue says, "Oh, sorry! Just trying to find something!"
Sue leaves.
Sue arrives.
<OOC> Sue says, "Sorry, I'm just trying to figure this out."
Sue leaves.
Sue arrives.
Sue leaves.
Sue arrives.
Sue leaves.
Sue arrives.
Sue leaves.
Sue arrives.
<OOC> Sue says, "Hey, do you guys know where The Coffee Shop That Isn't This Coffee Shop But Is the Other Coffee Shop Built To Help Flesh Out The Forty Empty Grid Squares is?" -
@catsnake Because only about 6-7 people were ever interested in it. The person that originally brought them in was banned from the game and they are kind of hard to work in a MU in general.
That being said, if you have a real passion for it, and want to make a pitch/plea for keeping it, we will hear you out, but I make no promises beyond that.
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@catsnake said in Visit Fallcoast, sponsored by the Fallcoast Chamber of Commerce:
Well now I'm sad. Promethean was the reason I gave Fallcoast a chance in the first place. Why is it being removed from the new version?
As written Promethean has massive problems with MU games. Specifically the Disquiet and the Wasteland effects do not lend themselves well. I assume the intent was to force Prometheans to be sort of 'David Banner' type characters who were always going from town to town before their Disquiet affected too many people or the Wastelands became too noticeable. Unfortunately that concept doesn't really work for a MU*.
Its an odd situation because quite honestly I don't see too much of a problem with handwaving a lot of their limitation (Wasteland effect simply doesn't exist in this game, Disquiet does not affect player characters or does not affect supernaturals) but I suppose as soon as you start doing that you'll get complaints from people playing other spheres that their supernatural limitations aren't being handwaved.
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We also had enormous problems finding people willing to staff it. That + low interest, and a few other reasons it just never really took hold for long.
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Why not just keep the House Rules that are in place now? Basically Disquiet isn't as easy to build up and Wastelands take twice as long or something like that. However they're currently set up seem to be doing fine as is.
As for staff, as long as there's someone to approve sheets, XP, and whatnot, pretty much how it is now, I don't see why it can't be brought over to the new game. Prometheans can just kind of attach themselves to other plots, especially ones that are open to multiple spheres.
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I would argue TR and Fallcoast succeeded due to timing. If someone else were to spit out a generic multisphere game soon and open it prior to the reboot it would probably absorb most of the playerbase of Fallcoast aside from the hardliners.
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@catsnake The houserules as currently written only slightly ease the problems of those limitations. Supers can add their powerstat to their Willpower roll but even when you are rolling 8-9 dice and the Promethean is only rolling 3 dice you are going to lose out pretty often, and since you have to roll every single time you meet them (after the first) you're going to build up Disquiet pretty quickly (if you are rolling 9 dice to resist and the Promethean is rolling 3 dice for Disquiet you will gain a point of Disquiet about 1 time out of 6). Since you have to avoid gaining any more Disquiet for a period of weeks equal to the Promethean's Azoth in order to lower the Disquiet score it becomes pretty hard to reduce Disquiet if you are having any meaningful contact.
To put that into context, a Promethean with 3 Azoth can only meet with the character with 9 dice of resistance an average of twice a week if the person isn't going to be gaining (on average) Azoth. Twice a week doesn't really allow for much RP. And of course that's people with 9 dice. If the person doesn't have a powerstat then they better have some really good stats or else they aren't going to be able to RP much with the Promethean at all.
In a similar vein the 'fix' for Wastelands was that there was one place on the grid that Prometheans could stay at, way outside the city, where they wouldn't build Wastelands.
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@the-sands said in Visit Fallcoast, sponsored by the Fallcoast Chamber of Commerce:
@catsnake The houserules as currently written only slightly ease the problems of those limitations. Supers can add their powerstat to their Willpower roll but even when you are rolling 8-9 dice and the Promethean is only rolling 3 dice you are going to lose out pretty often, and since you have to roll every single time you meet them (after the first) you're going to build up Disquiet pretty quickly (if you are rolling 9 dice to resist and the Promethean is rolling 3 dice for Disquiet you will gain a point of Disquiet about 1 time out of 6). Since you have to avoid gaining any more Disquiet for a period of weeks equal to the Promethean's Azoth in order to lower the Disquiet score it becomes pretty hard to reduce Disquiet if you are having any meaningful contact.
To put that into context, a Promethean with 3 Azoth can only meet with the character with 9 dice of resistance an average of twice a week if the person isn't going to be gaining (on average) Azoth. Twice a week doesn't really allow for much RP. And of course that's people with 9 dice. If the person doesn't have a powerstat then they better have some really good stats or else they aren't going to be able to RP much with the Promethean at all.
In a similar vein the 'fix' for Wastelands was that there was one place on the grid that Prometheans could stay at, way outside the city, where they wouldn't build Wastelands.
This seems like something super easy to fix. Just change it to a mechanic much like Primal Urge where they are uncomfortable to be around, lose dice for social interactions. I mean its an RP game so... Why wouldn't that be the first thing worked out
Then when it's all over and the rest of you are ready for Dead Animal Pickup, I'm gonna go balls deep into Dahl. But only because she asked me to. Sweet-like. - Riddick (2013)
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@thatonedude Yeah. I'm not saying it can't be fixed. I'm just saying that that is the current fix and those are the results.
Of course turning it down to the level of Primal Urge does then lead to the early issue with some players complaining that they want their own sphere limitations loosened, but that's a whole separate ball of wax.
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@the-sands said in Visit Fallcoast, sponsored by the Fallcoast Chamber of Commerce:
@thatonedude Yeah. I'm not saying it can't be fixed. I'm just saying that that is the current fix and those are the results.
Of course turning it down to the level of Primal Urge does then lead to the early issue with some players complaining that they want their own sphere limitations loosened, but that's a whole separate ball of wax.
The thing that is weird to me is most games have a hard time with the stuff that in the big picture don't really mean anything. "We're gonna remove multiattack cause we don't like you kicking NPCs in the face 5 times! AND! We're scared you'll use it in PK which is TERRIBLE!" Ok... but making it easier for an ENTIRE sphere to RP is mission impossible?
The above multiattack thing is so stupid that I can't even as well. I mean if its a PK thing then house rule that you can't use multiattacks in PK... >.>;
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I never ran into any problems with Disquiet while playing a Promethean on FC with the current House Rules. I even played with mortals multiple times a week and the highest it ever got was to Stage 2, and that was once with one character. These weren't characters with crazy high resistance stats either.
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@catsnake I'll talk it over with Sonder, If there is a call for it, and people are okay with it being small and the like, we'll look into it. If there are people interested in staffing it, even better.