Course Corrections

[Arkandel]

Sometimes people are just unable to form abstractions in the context of games. That doesn't mean all abstractions are necessary or even beneficial, just that some are.

There was a guy on Arx who insisted on figuring out if cement was invented in that world. How were they making the kinds of buildings they were without it? How?

But that's not a very interesting question to answer. And each time one is answered someone will push for more ("so if I have that, can I create asphalt? I can, right? Then we can have better roads! Then if we can harvest the power of steam we can have an industrial revolution!").

Just let it be, dammit.

[saosmash]

You know, in 20+ years of RP I don't think I have ever written a pose about Legos.

[Sparks]

@Maira said in Course Corrections:

Past tense: Maybe it's habit or something the other player prefers. Habits can be awfully hard to break, and if that's how they learned to RP, even more so.

This seems legit.

Tense convention among many MMO RPers is past tense, a'la writing a novel. Having started on MU*s, even as someone who writes stories in my spare time, I have been the jackass who poses present tense habitually among my guild mates, and then apologizes. (Thankfully, as it is usually in Google Docs, I can go back and edit my shame away.)

It can be really really hard to break those habits.

[faraday]

@Auspice said in Course Corrections:

The issue wasn't the concept of Legos. It was her need to use the brand name (in IC dialogue) and have everyone else warp theme to do so as well (for them and other such items), for her.

OK, yeah, that sounds obnoxious now that I have more info.

But still, back to the more generic point... LEGO is a particularly glaring use (like iPod would be), but it still seems a weird thing for folks to get upset over. I mean, where do you draw the line? Like @ThatGuyThere said -- what about 'tennis shoes' or 'aspirin' or 'kleenex' or 'okay', or 'getting to third base' or calling someone a 'casanova' or saying you're going to 'go postal'?
There are a bazillion common everyday items/expressions that have their roots in specific RL historical events or brand names. Trying to be the Theme Police for all of that just sounds exhausting.

[Roz]

@faraday said in Course Corrections:

@Auspice said in Course Corrections:

The issue wasn't the concept of Legos. It was her need to use the brand name (in IC dialogue) and have everyone else warp theme to do so as well (for them and other such items), for her.

OK, yeah, that sounds obnoxious now that I have more info.

But still, back to the more generic point... LEGO is a particularly glaring use (like iPod would be), but it still seems a weird thing for folks to get upset over. I mean, where do you draw the line? Like @ThatGuyThere said -- what about 'tennis shoes' or 'aspirin' or 'kleenex' or 'okay', or 'getting to third base' or calling someone a 'casanova' or saying you're going to 'go postal'?
There are a bazillion common everyday items/expressions that have their roots in specific RL historical events or brand names. Trying to be the Theme Police for all of that just sounds exhausting.

Well, I can imagine a single off-hand comment ("Hah, we wouldn't actually have real LEGOs cause of theme") become a much bigger deal after facing the kind of reaction described. ("I was told I don't have to watch the show so you can't tell me when I'm wrong about theme!!") It definitely sounds like one of those cases where it may have only become a big deal because of the reaction.

[Sparks]

@faraday I like Asimov's approach to Nightfall, where he said since the book was in English, the terms and idioms were translated accordingly, but readers could feel free to pretend that he used the original alien cultural words instead.

I also present: http://whatever.scalzi.com/2008/10/01/xkcd-gets-it-right-again/

If the difference is important, use a custom term; if the mounts on your world are amphibious carnivorous snails, don't call them horses, but if it's an herbivorous quadruped with no meaningful differences from a horse... yeah, it's probably best to call it a horse and let folks move on.

[Arkandel]

@Sparks I still am always irked when someone says "OK" in a fantasy setting. Every time. It's like nails scratching on a blackboard to me.

[Thenomain]

@faraday said in Course Corrections:

I mean, where do you draw the line? Like @ThatGuyThere said -- what about 'tennis shoes' or 'aspirin' or 'kleenex' or 'okay', or 'getting to third base' or calling someone a 'casanova' or saying you're going to 'go postal'?

It lies somewhere between "the suspension of disbelief" and "you know what I mean".

I mean, as another relevant example, let's say that you were trying to try and make a game where you were safe against modern social abuses, but people just could not get their brain around your explanation as why there's no history of selling functions of your body. An issue like this probably breaks either "the suspension of disbelief" or "you know what I mean". And in this particular example, it breaks one for some people and the other for other people, creating a situation that is beyond exhausting. There may be a right answer here, but there's no easy answer.

Writing is a skill, but when you have people of a billion skill levels all creating their own stories then further expectations need to apply. That is exhausting, but it's part of the give and take that we need to do what we do.

This is a very long and somewhat meandering way to +1 @Maira; changing cultural expectations doesn't happen overnight, and the person coming in needs to both be welcome and willing to change.

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@saosmash said in Course Corrections:

You know, in 20+ years of RP I don't think I have ever written a pose about Legos.

SHE DID IT FUCKING CONSTANTLY. MY GOD MY GOD MY GOD.

Oh gosh, this person. This person haunts my fucking dreams.

It wasn't even her inability to watch 1 ep of the show or 1 90 minute movie that got to me. But players repeatedly spent time finding Youtube links she could digest in 2-5 minutes, which gave her all the context she needed not to be an idiot about the specific issue she was being an idiot about.

She aggressively did not want to get it.

And then she got promoted ICly and I just ........................................................

She's an anomaly, though. Staff need to deal with this shit when it's ongoing and stubborn obliviousness to theme. When it's just a random one-time anachronism, I'm usually going to let it go unless it's so confusing it requires a repose.

[Auspice]

I give no fucks when it's used within a pose as a contextual reference for the player.

'The shirt is gunmetal grey.' in a description. Cool, got it.

vs.

"So, I want you to make sure that my doubtlet is gunmetal grey in the painting," Lord McFarty crooned to the artist.

"What is this... gunmetal you speak of, m'Lord?"

<OOC> Lord McFarty says, "wtf don't you know what a gun looks like?!"

It's two very different things.

[Thenomain]

@Auspice

I would smack that artist's player so hard for breaking the "you know what I mean" expectiation. As @faraday says, when does it end? Do you nitpick over the dialect? Over the idea of an artist daring speak back to a noble? I bet that artist arrived at the front door too!

We are modern people. We must make allowances, or be less snitty about correcting them.

[OOC] Artist says, "How about 'steel gray' instead?"

[Ganymede]

@Auspice said in Course Corrections:

"So, I want you to make sure that my doubtlet is gunmetal grey in the painting," Lord McFarty crooned to the artist.

"What is this... gunmetal you speak of, m'Lord?"

<OOC> Lord McFarty says, "wtf don't you know what a gun looks like?!"

See, I don't have a problem with this. I'd have a problem if the following occurred:

<OOC> Lord McFarty says, "wtf don't you know what a gun looks like?!"
<OOC> Artsy Fartsy says, "I know what it looks like, but my PC has no idea what a gun is and doesn't know what you're referring to."
<OOC> Lord McFarty says, "well ur goin to know now cuz everyone knows it unless they're stupid"
<OOC> Artsy Fartsy says, "Look, guns don't exist in this world, so I don't even know how your PC knows what gunmetal is. Guns don't exist in Westeros. I'm just trying to keep things IC, know what I mean?"
<OOC> Lord McFarty says, "ive never watched GoT!!! i don't plan to so don't tell me what i can't pose!!! i don't plan to change"

It's the unwillingness to put even the slightest effort into what they are doing, so that they aren't negatively affecting what you're doing. That's what I have a problem with: the lack of respect for others.

Fucking effort, people.

[faraday]

@Ganymede said in Course Corrections:

<OOC> Lord McFarty says, "ive never watched GoT!!! i don't plan to so don't tell me what i can't pose!!! i don't plan to change"

That's obnoxious, yes. But....

It's the unwillingness to put even the slightest effort into what they are doing, so that they aren't negatively affecting what you're doing. That's what I have a problem with: the lack of respect for others.

Really? Them using an innocuous phrase like "gunmetal gray" or "okay" is impacting your enjoyment of the game? Really? I mean, if so okay, I'll take your word for it. It just seems strange to me, that's all.

To channel @Thenomain

"What is this... gunmetal you speak of, m'Lord?"
<OOC> Faraday says, "Oh come on...you know what I meant."

[Arkandel]

Also consensus is a very funny thing. The norms we consider sacred here might not be elsewhere - such as "which tense do people pose in" mentioned earlier in the thread. I haven't RPed on IRC in probably twenty years but I remember it was a pretty common practice, so why would someone used to an environment feel the urge to change unless they wanted or had to?

It just strikes me as poor form to jump down their throats about it. That's gonna be a great way to make them want to change their ways to suit 'us', right?

[saosmash]

The tenses thing is more about like ... reacting to the way people are around you, for me. It's not that past tense versus present tense is such a huge deal, but if a player makes no effort to react to the fact that every single other player on the game is playing in present tense and it happens for multiple scenes in a row at some point I'm starting to wonder if they're reading and responding to other people's poses.

[Pyrephox]

@Arkandel said in Course Corrections:

Sometimes people are just unable to form abstractions in the context of games. That doesn't mean all abstractions are necessary or even beneficial, just that some are.

There was a guy on Arx who insisted on figuring out if cement was invented in that world. How were they making the kinds of buildings they were without it? How?

But that's not a very interesting question to answer. And each time one is answered someone will push for more ("so if I have that, can I create asphalt? I can, right? Then we can have better roads! Then if we can harvest the power of steam we can have an industrial revolution!").

Just let it be, dammit.

I am sometimes in danger of becoming this. I try very hard not to, but it frustrates me on a deep level if I can't predict in some regard how the world works and what options are available. Like, to me, whether a world has a knowledge of germ theory is /fascinating/, especially if it actually takes the idea that it doesn't, but it does have Some Sort of Magical Healing and run with it. I don't need people to die of infected wounds willy and nilly, but if there is no germ theory, don't refer to disinfecting things! Chase away the fever spirits by getting them drunk on strong alcohol, or point out that in this world, surgeons CAN go bloody-handed from one patient to the next, because they're really laying on hands, not practicing modern medicine.

But I'm a setting geek.

[Arkandel]

@saosmash How about style?

For example I find it mildly distracting (although it doesn't really bother me) when people use wiki codes in their poses. Or if they are using %t's to format paragraphs with tabs, stuff like that.

Do those count?

[Ghost]

CLARIFICATION ON MY LEGO-LASS EXPERIENCE

It was on an older, now extinct BSG game that no longer exists.

It basically went like this:

• Her Viper pilot had LEGGO and ZORBing as skills, both trademarked names in current Earth continuity.
• She was making RL pop culture references
• TBH I should have questioned more that staff approved her character with these skills as a means to gauge their adherence to canon.
• My motivation wasn't to shame her for having those skills and making pop culture references, but moreso to offer my knowledge of the setting to help her to better fit in with the players (no, this is not bullshit. I swear. I like my genre to stay in genre for my own reasons, but really, sought to help)
• We chatted and I asked her if she'd seen the show. She said no. I asked if she planned on it, which she said NO to as well.
• I explained (spoilers) that BSG takes place thousands of years before Earth history, so trademarked names, pop culture references to stuff like Star Wars, haven't happened yet. So I politely clarified that this isn't in Earth's future, but it's past.
• She barked at me via pages for harassing her (this was approx 10 pages, and she hadn't told me to stop paging her, there was no bitchy language), and then complained about me to staff.
• Staff reached out to me and basically told me "we agree with you but to keep things calm, give her some room"
• I gave her room, moved on.

[Thenomain]

@Arkandel said in Course Corrections:

There was a guy on Arx who insisted on figuring out if cement was invented in that world. How were they making the kinds of buildings they were without it? How?
But that's not a very interesting question to answer.

Didn't see this until @Pyrephox responded.

I love the history of technology. I revel in it. It is super-interesting to me. I have probably watched every James Burke BBC show, certainly every episode of Connections and The Day The Universe Changed. Maybe I want to start an industrial revolution. Isn't it plausible that I pursue it as a character goal?

Staff may not have the time nor education nor inclination to chase that theme. I feel exactly the same way when people press for more detailed crafting rules, but goddamn some people like themselves some crafting mini-games! It's okay for staff to say that they aren't going to focus on something, but it's certainly okay for players to think that it's interesting.

[Ganymede]

@faraday said in Course Corrections:

Really? Them using an innocuous phrase like "gunmetal gray" or "okay" is impacting your enjoyment of the game? Really? I mean, if so okay, I'll take your word for it. It just seems strange to me, that's all.

The example here isn't the greatest, I'll admit, but I know that fantasy games are a bit tighter on theme than others, for reasons. But, if I may:

• I explained (spoilers) that BSG takes place thousands of years before Earth history, so trademarked names, pop culture references to stuff like Star Wars, haven't happened yet. So I politely clarified that this isn't in Earth's future, but it's past.
• She barked at me via pages for harassing her (this was approx 10 pages, and she hadn't told me to stop paging her, there was no bitchy language), and then complained about me to staff.
• Staff reached out to me and basically told me "we agree with you but to keep things calm, give her some room"
• I gave her room, moved on.

Again, for me, I'd have less of a problem with the use of "LEGO" than I would with reporting me to staff for trying to keep the theme/setting intact by offering helpful pointers, only to be told, in so many words, to suck it up princess because I want to play fucking LEGOs instead of engaging in the already-set theme/setting.

I mean, I play on BSG: Unification. I have to consciously not toss in references to Prentice-Hall or Houghton Mifflin Harcourt when talking about my PC's penchant for textbooks, or Shakespearean quotes. But I try because I know that the pop-culture references aren't really found in the BSG world.

Because if you've played with me on a WoD, I like to pepper my poses with counter-interpellative cultural references and memes for humor value.