MU Flowchart
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@Thenomain said in MU Flowchart:
@Ashen-Shugar said in MU Flowchart:
@Bubasti said in MU Flowchart:
I love you guys.
Now I can stare at it for long hours, sipping brandy, and contemplating how I'll never be able to have my own MU.
The key, of course, is to design a mush based on a theme that appeals enough to existing coders to draw them in so they can help you
7th Sea.
Fallout.
The Strange.
Anything @Coin mentions is vaguely interesting. (And a Your Mom joke here, because it’s Coin.)
What are yours, Ashen?
I think this is largely because I've learned to talk to you and can probably distill the things about a theme/setting/franchise/game that would interest you and capitalize on them.
(Your mom preempts Your Mom jokes.)
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@Thenomain said in MU Flowchart:
@Ashen-Shugar said in MU Flowchart:
@Bubasti said in MU Flowchart:
I love you guys.
Now I can stare at it for long hours, sipping brandy, and contemplating how I'll never be able to have my own MU.
The key, of course, is to design a mush based on a theme that appeals enough to existing coders to draw them in so they can help you
7th Sea.
Fallout.
The Strange.
Anything @Coin mentions is vaguely interesting. (And a Your Mom joke here, because it’s Coin.)
What are yours, Ashen?
Games that'd get me interested, lessee.
Fallout or anything post apocalyptic, anything with some good degree of time travel mechanics, resident evil (if done well and which doesn't attract wall-hanging narcissistic buttholes), and maybe some unique anime based one. Something like Armitage III, Gunsmith Cats, Gunslinger Girl, Sword Art Online, or similar that has some great character development and excellent story-board material for current and future game play.
But most of the main-theme things like WoD, Trek, Wars, etc I think have been kinda like this...
So as long as it's not something overused, and something that has great depth to continue many years of alteration and play-ability, I'm game to give it a looksee.
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For me there are two sides of this.
First - even with the code suites that @Thenomain @Volund and I (not intending to gip anybody those are just the only ones I know of) have created, it requires silly amounts of technical savvy to get just a basic cookie-cutter game up and running. I can go to wordpress.com or wikidot.com and get a blog or wiki set up with a few clicks in about 5 minutes flat, but a MUSH? Forget about it. That's just silly in this day and age. It's one of the problems I'm trying to tackle with AresMUSH.
But second - let's pretend you could have a MUSH with all the basic softcode set up in 5 minutes. Most game runners, it seems, aren't satisfied with what comes out of the box (even with modest configuration available). They always have some grand vision for economy code or space code or their own chargen system or crafting system or magic system or whatever. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but yeah.... you're gonna need a coder. That's not some grand failing of MUSHdom that's just like: "Hey I want to paint a pretty mural" Well guess what, you're going to need to either be an artist, learn to paint, or hire an artist you trust to implement your vision. Duh.
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@faraday said in MU Flowchart:
For me there are two sides of this.
First - even with the code suites that @Thenomain @Volund and I (not intending to gip anybody those are just the only ones I know of) have created, it requires silly amounts of technical savvy to get just a basic cookie-cutter game up and running. I can go to wordpress.com or wikidot.com and get a blog or wiki set up with a few clicks in about 5 minutes flat, but a MUSH? Forget about it. That's just silly in this day and age. It's one of the problems I'm trying to tackle with AresMUSH.
I tried 0 to Mush. I failed. I don't know why things didn't work. They just didn't.
But second - let's pretend you could have a MUSH with all the basic softcode set up in 5 minutes. Most game runners, it seems, aren't satisfied with what comes out of the box (even with modest configuration available). They always have some grand vision for economy code or space code or their own chargen system or crafting system or magic system or whatever. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but yeah.... you're gonna need a coder. That's not some grand failing of MUSHdom that's just like: "Hey I want to paint a pretty mural" Well guess what, you're going to need to either be an artist, learn to paint, or hire an artist you trust to implement your vision. Duh.
I'm more than willing to learn, but that requires a coder sitting down with me and teaching which brings everyone back to needing a coder again.
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@Lisse24 said in MU Flowchart:
@faraday said in MU Flowchart:
I tried 0 to Mush. I failed. I don't know why things didn't work. They just didn't.
Exactly. And you're not the only one. Not by far. Heck, I've run into server weirdness that threw me for a loop before, and I do this crap for a living.
I'm more than willing to learn, but that requires a coder sitting down with me and teaching which brings everyone back to needing a coder again.
Not really. It just brings you back to having a way to learn. Tons of people learn coding through internet tutorials. It doesn't require a personal tutor (though that's a bonus). It just requires good tutorials or determination. A non-archaic language is also a bonus
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@faraday I haven't really found an online tutorial that explains things in the detail that I need. I'm not saying that they aren't out there, I'm just saying that none of the ones that I've seen had it. They all seem to suppose some sort of technical knowledge that I don't have.
I will admit that I haven't looked in years, though.
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Also
https://see.stanford.edu/Course/CS106A
It will not teach you mush code, but the Stanford class (it's free) should get the concepts across enough for you to teach yourself the mush stuff using helpfiles, dissecting other peoples' code, and asking for the occasional bit of help. Very few of the mush coders I know are anything but mostly self-taught.
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@Lisse24 said in MU Flowchart:
I tried 0 to Mush. I failed. I don't know why things didn't work. They just didn't.
Last I checked, DigitalOcean had a fairly persistent issue with their basic mediawiki droplet that makes everything break if you change anything unless you add a specific line to LocalSettings.php that... you have to actually already know it needs to be there or you'll be at a loss.
I think the structure of the MUX files is also different now than they were when the tutorial first went up, and there's an additional level or two of nesting you need to dig through to get to the files you need to get it up and running.
That may not help precisely, but these are real hiccups and issues that are not a sign of anything you're doing wrong, so please don't let them be a discouragement in that sense, or make you feel like you can't do it.
If you ever end up trying to go that route again for whatever reason, feel free to nudge and I'll check on the tweak things I had to do from one of my old backed-up droplets to give you the mediawiki line you need and whatever else, if I can.
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@Sunny said in MU Flowchart:
Also
https://see.stanford.edu/Course/CS106A
It will not teach you mush code, but the Stanford class (it's free) should get the concepts across enough for you to teach yourself the mush stuff using helpfiles, dissecting other peoples' code, and asking for the occasional bit of help. Very few of the mush coders I know are anything but mostly self-taught.
There's also Amberyl's Mush Manual
15+ years outdated, but the base ideas and core features are still valid today.
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@Ashen-Shugar Yeah the progression I usually point folks towards is Amberyl's manual, then my journeyman level guide and finally some tips for large-scale systems. But all of those docs are ancient and not the greatest.
@Sunny said in MU Flowchart:
It will not teach you mush code, but the Stanford class (it's free) should get the concepts across enough for you to teach yourself the mush stuff using helpfiles, dissecting other peoples' code, and asking for the occasional bit of help. Very few of the mush coders I know are anything but mostly self-taught.
I'm not even sure that learning a mainstream language will help much. I mean, yes, some of the extremely basic concepts (lists, functions) are the same, but the languages are so tremendously different. And MUSHcode is just plain hard if you want to do anything of any complexity.
Frankly I wouldn't steer anyone towards learning MUSHcode at this point. Learn Python (for Evennia) or Ruby (for AresMUSH, which I promise will be publicly available one of these days) and try your luck with one of the next-gen servers. I think you'll end up in a better place - and learn a language that might actually be useful in the real world.
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Yeah, I agree. Code combat teaches Python, and the Stanford class doesn't teach a real language, but instead the concepts of coding.
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@faraday said in MU Flowchart:
Frankly I wouldn't steer anyone towards learning MUSHcode at this point. Learn Python (for Evennia) or Ruby (for AresMUSH, which I promise will be publicly available one of these days) and try your luck with one of the next-gen servers. I think you'll end up in a better place - and learn a language that might actually be useful in the real world.
... or use RhostMUSH's restful API and code in any language you want with liburl
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... or use RhostMUSH's restful API and code in any language you want with liburl
7th Sea MU written in PIC ASM project started.
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How to learn how to code.
Step 1: Ambryl's Mush Manual.
Step 2: Code 'who'. (find existing who code and take it apart, asks questions about how it works, then code it three different ways)
Step 3: Code 'where'. (find existing where code and take it apart, asks questions about how it works, then code it three different ways)You are now a coder.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
@Thenomain I like 'finger' after 'who' because one teaches lists and the other teaches parameters and also data storage for custom finger profile fields.
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Fine fine. Repeatedly code "who", "finger", and "where" until you are sick of it. Actually, you know what: Code "finger" first. Alternatively, any other code along these levels that will familiarize you with:
- Displaying Things: Maybe 90% of Mu* code is displaying or getting ready to display some bit of information.
- Getting Attributes & Object Information: You have to have something to display, and you often need to know if the person is the right kind of person to display information to.
- The Help Files: By this point you should know "help function classes". You will be using the help files until you get fed up with Mu* coding and stop.
- Conditions: You know that basic 'if/then/else' stuff that far too many people think is downright magic. "If you are staff then I will display a lot of information, else I will display less information." Still critical for any code in any language.
- Loops: This is the magic. Being able to wrap your mind around 'I have a list of things, and for each thing I want to do another thing, and this is how I organize that' is one of the most difficult thoughts to teach non-coders who are learning Mu*, and this is why you want to code "finger" first.
These are the basics. This is what "finger" and "who" will teach you, with "where" stretching your ability to apply these things. If you can understand these concepts, then you can be your own coder, or at least keep any volunteer coders in check.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
And then you get to Regular Expressions, the ins-and-outs of Command-style vs Functional-style (and their hybrid conventions) and what the pros and cons are for both, inheritance, controls / permissions, SQL interactivity, and the true test... fold()
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@Thenomain Yeah, pretty much. My intermediate tutorial walks you through who, finger, and a simple roll. (It also does a multi-pager for some dumb reason that made sense, like, twelve years ago :P)
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@faraday said in MU Flowchart:
(It also does a multi-pager for some dumb reason that made sense, like, twelve years ago :P)
Because people wanted to be able to respond to a multi-page without having to type out the entire list. Knowing how to fake say/pose/emit is not bad knowledge to have, either, but I can't imagine most people needing it.
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@Mercutio said in MU Flowchart:
And then you get to Regular Expressions, the ins-and-outs of Command-style vs Functional-style (and their hybrid conventions) and what the pros and cons are for both, inheritance, controls / permissions, SQL interactivity, and the true test... fold()
With luck, someone can go their entire Mu* code career without any of this but inheritance and some limited permissions, which is just a subset of "grab an attribute".
I would rather someone learn how to abstract repetitive code blocks via function calls. And the ins and outs of flags. And come to think of it, a competent coder should be prepared to be a halfway competent builder which means a basic understanding of the various object types and how they interact.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
@faraday said in MU Flowchart:
@Thenomain Yeah, pretty much. My intermediate tutorial walks you through who, finger, and a simple roll. (It also does a multi-pager for some dumb reason that made sense, like, twelve years ago :P)
I also made a 'help coding' in the RhostMUSH help files that go through a fairly comprehensive overview of all the tools to start coding on a mush.
