What's That Game's About?

[ThatOneDude]

I shooting for an "Inception" sort of experience in a game. In this game of WoD we'll play characters that play another role playing game, a game within a game... Where does one end and the other begin?! ITS MADNESS! >.>

[Bobotron]

@Ganymede said:

I concur with Raptor in that I don't recall Pyrephox's interpretation from my readings of C:tL's main book.

Changelings can bargain with the Gentry after their escape, at their own peril. That's fine. But when you consider that the Gentry reap humans to create air, trees, and stone, it seems clear to me that they aren't truly interested in getting anything tangible from humans. They likely only bargain to eventually fuck with someone else, that's all.

It's actually a lot more than that. The book Equinox Road goes into a lot about the True Fae, and their makeup; they are essentially living aspects of story, and so their bargains and such are all about aspects of their story. They don't have to do the bargaining at all, but like Rumplestiltskin or other fantasy creatures who deal in riddles and deals, they are bound by the narrative they create through their manifestations of Actors, Props, Wisps and Realms (which are all just ways for one True Fae to be visible and have representation and people working for it). And in order to have meaning of some sort to their lives, they do this.

Anyone looking to expand on the why and what of a True Fae from Lost, I'd recommend giving those sections a read. The rules from there should also really be adhered to in any type of Lost-based MU*, as it details the methods for making all their stuff from Titles through investments, as well as what happens when a True Fae runs out of Titles and such things. It's a really good and really informative read.

[surreality]

@Thenomain said:

Deeper in time. So longer in the Hedge.

And "just because x doesn't mean y"? Eh, I suppose you could say that about a lot but it's not very interesting. I prefer to think of it as: Gentry don't have to worry about that, and the Empathy skill doesn't mean to Gentry what you'd think it means to people. Alien.

Agreed. I think of it more in this context:

The empathy skill for gentry applies to other gentry.

The skill they'd employ to apply to us? Animal Ken.

Not too complicated, really, to wrap the brain around.

That might not be the way it works specifically in game terms -- but it's the analogy I'd draw there. A farmer may have a favorite cow he pats on the head, and a family cat that's a cherished pet, but it doesn't mean he won't send the cow off to slaughter to happily eat it later, or put up with bad behavior from the cat to the extent he might with his own children.

[Thenomain]

I think, Sess, that we like to think way too much about these things, but that "Manipulation + Empathy" is one way to know how to screw with people's emotions.

@Ganymede, where did you get the "all landscape in Arcadia is human"? It sounds very Wraith, and I don't recall anything hinting that way. I admit, tho, that I have read the Changeling books an obsessive number of times tho it's been a while ago now.

[Ganymede]

@Thenomain said:

[W]here did you get the "all landscape in Arcadia is human"? It sounds very Wraith, and I don't recall anything hinting that way. I admit, tho, that I have read the Changeling books an obsessive number of times tho it's been a while ago now.

The Elemental write-up, mostly.

[Wizz]

I always read that more as those Lost were exposed so long to the elements in Arcadia that in order to survive they became the elements, but not necessarily that all of the elements that made up Arcadia were originally human. It's an interesting and spooky take on it, though, and definitely makes the old rule about not eating "Fae food" even weirder.

[Ganymede]

@Wizz

I think in spooky ways, I guess.

No, I think there's nothing beyond the Hedge that wasn't, in some way, crafted from humanity. Those who get free are those able to pull their souls from the Hedge, along with their bodies. I think a very creepy villain are those Hedge-things that are allowed to leave: no souls, just monstrous machines of matter and flesh carved at the hands of alien-beings and destined to serve them. Sort of like what would happen if the Tzimisce existed beyond the Thorns.

Sleep well.

[Thenomain]

Without humanity, Arcadia would exist only as potential; this is one of the things from Equinox I agreed with. If your reading was from Winter Masques, I can buy it. If it's from Core, then those are extremely biased views from the viewpoint of that Seeming. E.g., each Seeming has had the hardest time in Arcadia because this or that.

[Arkandel]

I'm relatively ignorant about Changeling-things, but Arcadia or even the Hedge seem to be one of the least hospitable (per se...) places for crossovers compared to any other splat's. For instance there are many ways to access the Underworld and return, it's just that Sin-Eaters are better and faster at navigating it; likewise the Shadow is accessible by other supernatural types, there's even a Vampire Discipline line just for that - they wouldn't be remotely as good as Uratha at it but they can get there and back independently.

Correct me if I'm wrong but it sounds like going to even the Hedge without some Lost assistance might be an one-way trip, at least if you count on returning with your soul bits mostly intact.

[Wizz]

@Thenomain
There's definitely a single statement of perspective that goes "This Seeming believes their escape was hardest because ___________," but what implies their entire write-up is subjective?

[Miss Demeanor]

@Arkandel You would think so... but not necessarily. There's mechanics for Mages, Vampires, and Werewolves in the Hedge... and speculation of what happens to the ones that don't come back. My favorite is the theory that briar wolves are werewolves that went nuts and got lost in the Hedge. BUT, the books have stated that other supers have come and gone from the Hedge. Its rare, but it happens. Hedge Gates are hilariously easy to wander through on accident.

[Arkandel]

@Miss-Demeanor said:

@Arkandel You would think so... but not necessarily. There's mechanics for Mages, Vampires, and Werewolves in the Hedge... and speculation of <snip!>

I agree with just about everything you said but let me put it this way - if your Werewolf pack made trips to the Hedge in most of the games I've played so far, someone would have strong words to say about that. Whereas the Shadow (for example) has traditionally been more welcoming for non-sphere members. Hell, arguably a Death Master is far better off in the Underworld than a Sin-Eater.

[The Tree of Woe]

I always wanted to toy with the idea of a True Fae who became a reverse-changeling, of a sort. By tarrying in the human world too long, emotions and such were foisted on them unintentionally, and it became a part of them.

The sneers I got for this idea were part of what turned me off of Changeling.

[Thenomain]

@Wizz

History in how White Wolf has written and then changed things stated or implied in their Core Book writeups. They are things to take with a grain of salt.

[Thenomain]

@The-Tree-of-Woe

No sneering here. What you describe is still a True Fae by many accounts, so "no" is still a valid answer.

That you got sneered at by people on the Internet should surprise you not one bit. I got the same when I suggested playing a Werewolf who was really a normal wolf possessed by a very powerful spirit.

[The Tree of Woe]

@Thenomain Legit. And maybe not suitable for a MUX.

Honestly, the only thing I really hated about werewolf was the blowjobbing the Pure got, when they are objectively awful. Absolute dickbags, and almost worthless from a narrative point of view.

[Miss Demeanor]

@Arkandel Oh absolutely. No amount of book say-so will stop people from getting uppity over 'touching their cake'. That the 'cake' in question isn't theirs to hoard, of course, will be completely ignored.

[Arkandel]

@The-Tree-of-Woe said:

@Thenomain Legit. And maybe not suitable for a MUX.

That's actually a very good point. There are many concepts which are a bit further out there, either because they're pet theories of what something is really like or just because it's a bit out there. They could still make kick-ass campaigns, but on MU things are (out of necessity? habit?) more conservative. There are fewer exceptions made. Stuff is more streamlined.

I can't say if that's a good thing or bad at least for the nWoD because every game I've seen so far didn't toe the line too much, so there's no historical analysis (at least that I'm aware of). Would games have been more successful if they incorporated possessed wolves and reverse Changelings? No idea.

[Wizz]

@Thenomain said:

History in how White Wolf has written and then changed things stated or implied in their Core Book writeups. They are things to take with a grain of salt.

@Thenomain said:

Not even the core book, which I believe is the only book that should really matter.

You're a great dude to talk about this with and I'mma let you finish, but I think I can at least gently tease you about the fact that you said the complete opposite about Werewolf.

That you got sneered at by people on the Internet should surprise you not one bit. I got the same when I suggested playing a Werewolf who was really a normal wolf possessed by a very powerful spirit.

One of the Werewolf splat books has some rules for playing Claimed PCs, which I always thought would be incredibly cool. But yeah, people are boring.

@The-Tree-of-Woe said:

I always wanted to toy with the idea of a True Fae who became a reverse-changeling, of a sort. By tarrying in the human world too long, emotions and such were foisted on them unintentionally, and it became a part of them.

I might be remembering this wrong, but isn't this totally a thing in Equinox Road? A True Fae that's lost all its Titles and crossed through the Hedge?

[Thenomain]

Note: I never applied to what amounted to be "the complete opposite of what a character in this game is about" for Werewolf. It was a believable story to illustrate that it isn't "Changeling Players" but "Dickbag Players" who were giving Tree a hard time.

I did once write a background character for Immortal (a Purified) after merely being described what the game was about, only to find it was impossible to have that happen. I liked my background a whole lot better.

And as Tree says, yeah, in Tabletop we can throw a lot of stuff away and just say, "Sure, why not, this seems more fun." In his specific situation, I believe Autumn Nightmares covers that exact situation. I do think that only the Core Book should matter, but when there's an official splatbook about something, it's very hard to go against expectations.

Except for Fetch babies. I think everyone ignores Fetch babies. At least they should.

---

@Wizz, I'm not sure what you're saying here. The Core Book can matter but still be wrong about things. I've given two, maybe three examples where Changeling: The Lost contradicts itself subtly but so completely that you have to make a decision whether or not the text is correct.

In the case of all the White Wolf books, the "racial write-ups" (Seemings, in this case) have typically been about half from the view of that racial archetype. Ergo, take it with a grain of salt. It's either that or throw out the latter books entirely.

I still want the Core book to be the only one that matters, but I also want a pony and White Wolf (nee Onyx Path) to be consistent and concise the first time. Did I mention I wanted a pony?

@Thenomain said:

should really matter

Pony Emphasis mine.