An Apology to BSO and BSU.
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DownWithOPP made an apology to me a while back, which I accepted. I accepted the apology because I sincerely believe that he didn't mean to offend me -- and he didn't, not in the slightest.
Regardless, I am compelled to recuse myself.
I will have to leave this decision to @Arkandel.
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@carnivale said in An Apology to BSO and BSU.:
While I do understand that there have been people who have been hurt on an emotional level at some point in time by @DownWithOPP, we have ventured into a territory of baiting and blasting - neither of which seem to be overly conducive or even mildly-constructive in any way.
Yes, but whose fault is that? OPP's, who in spite of how people see him has been more or less civil in his own thread? Or the actions of others who are taking this opportunity to not simply call him out for being dishonest, but bash and mock him?
I'm not defending anyone here (I don't know enough to have an opinion), but questioning the idea that others can behave poorly and punish everyone in a thread regardless of the civility of others. I fear the chilling effect this would have, or the power this would give to those who want to drag any thread that they personally want into the Hog Pit.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos -
@thenomain said in An Apology to BSO and BSU.:
I'm not defending anyone here (I don't know enough to have an opinion), but questioning the idea that others can behave poorly and punish everyone in a thread regardless of the civility of others. I fear the chilling effect this would have, or the power this would give to those who want to drag any thread that they personally want into the Hog Pit.
I concur.
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I apologize for my initial post. I was taken aback that I was named-and-blamed in his initial post for some bullshit he pulled, with no mention of the wrongs done to me, and then he pulled some of the nonsense he was allegedly apologizing for in PMs and I just lost it.
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And saying, "You've got to be shitting me!" should not push a post into the Hog Pit. Nor should it prevent it. Passion is not trolling. Passion is not disgusting. Passion is passion, and everyone should have the right to offer their side of a story and to say, "No, I don't accept this."
@Carnivale talks about repetition, what I call "dog-piling", and that could indicate that the thread or at least parts of it are in candidacy for the Hog Pit. Disassembling a thread to do so, though, diminishes it and can pull context out of both halves. (Except tangents. Tangents are fun and easy.)
It's easier to just have someone or someones take a moment and say, "This is enough." And if someone else says, "Yeah, I was and still am pretty burned about this" then the living discussion is brought to a more realistic angle.
This is my completely non-administrative thought on it, though. There's a lot of quite creepy information floating around here, but is that not constructive? Only Ark & Aus can tell us for certain.
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I think the thread went off the rails when opp started challenging people who disagreed or who challenged what were kind of half truths of his.
By the time I read it he had already shared pms (and yeah they were referenced, I realize that) that apparently he though made him look good but instead reinforced the same sort of pattern that had happened before.
Well, here’s another quandary. People cannot post challenging or negative items on ad threads, fine.
But what happens when a person decides to go public with an apology that kind of puts others on the spot and may indeed be a way to get around not being able to communicate with them otherwise? Now if someone brags about playing with someone who they’ve made intensely uncomfortable in the past but hid who they were, who gets belligerent when confronted about their statements that aren’t completely truthy, etc...now it’s off limits to comment on behavior shown on display in that thread as well as prior experience?
I don’t think so.
This is also a person with known, bannable history of sexual harassment and creeping on games. Including circumventing a ban but being unable to keep the act together. I don’t think that person should get a pass because they try putting their thread in MC but their own behavior in it belies it.
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@mietze The apology also seemed to ignore a whole lot of other creepy behavior the OP has engaged in, so it's really not surprising when people respond negatively to an apology that actually couches what creepiness the OP does admit to in "I just wanted to fit in." From what I understand, he wasn't just "joining in on in-jokes and suggestive comments," he was the one bringing up suggestive stuff. So his apology ignores some of his worst behavior (stalking people across social media/other games and the crazy amount of lies he's made up regarding his OOC identity) and also attempts to half-excuse what he does admit to.
The fact that people who experienced his behavior are responding negatively to this is really not surprising. I also don't think that any of the responses in this thread have made steps beyond passionate to abusive. I mean, yeah, it's an ad hominem situation because it's a situation about one person's behavior. But I don't think calling out bad behavior or the serious issues with the original post is immediate Hog Pit material.
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When I first read this thread, my intent was to apologize to @faraday - who I put in a terrible spot, because we had communicated numerous times as friends and I had worked within the framework of BSU to help her when I could. But my behaviour had put her in a position where she had to take an action, one that I forced her hand on, and I wanted to apologize to her about it.
I also wanted to offer a long-overdue apology to @cupcake for misjudging her, being abrasive and offensive to her and that I was genuninely sorry for what I had done to her.
As all these other people speak out, I realize that my behaviour has been reprehensible. I have done things that I was not proud of. I was so driven by wanting to be part of things and to win over some form of affection and respect that I clung to people unneccessarily - not just women, but anyone that would show a positive effect towards the things I did. I wanted the attention. I wanted to be the part of someone else's world while neglecting my own.
@tek, I apologize for what happened with Marcus and your char. I wasn't upset because you didn't want to talk to me on Skype, I was more frustrated at the fact that I didn't feel like I was doing a well enough job in a command position and instead of discussing it with you and figuring out a solution, I went balls out and made a fatal mistake in a scene that got my char killed. It wasn't suicide, but I let the chips fall where they may.
@Roz And you're right, it's not the first time I did that. I have a problem. I know this. I've been mysgonistic, I've been an asshole. I've not been the type of person that should be invited to sit at the gaming table. There are those on this thread that have made sure to add on - I can't apologize enough to everyone. I made a mistake. I've made several mistakes. I let what was going on in my head to crave attention and affection eat away at what I was doing and became a cretin and a creep. For that, I am truly sorry.
I am currently taking time to work on me. I have been seeing a counselor - which is what spawned this post in the first place. I have to admit to myself, God and others that I have a problem. I //have// a problem. And I'm going to take the time I need to work on myself and try to figure out how to straighten this - myself - out.
I did not come here to start a fight. I did not come here to defend myself - though I ended up doing so - that was a backslide on my part. I came here to ask for forgiveness. To admit that I was wrong. I did something terrible, horrible, and I cannot take back. I hurt people I truly did care about and because of the anomitity that the internet provides, I didn't consider the feelings on the other side of the screen. I am truly sorry, and humbled by the anger that I have created.
I do not know what the future is going to bring. I need time to figure that out. I've withdrawn from almost everywhere. I communicate with a few people that I am still close to. I let the want to be popular, to be wanted, take over what should have been common sense and a more open mind.
I owe a great many people apologies. This thread was going to be the start of that. Even @auspice - I know you may never forgive me, but I am sorry for putting you in the position I did, and that we came to such bitter words over it. I was wrong.
I hope someday, I can make it right - and be a useful person and a good citizen in the gaming community again. Until then, I apologize.
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@downwithopp said in An Apology to BSO and BSU.:
I did not come here to start a fight. I did not come here to defend myself - though I ended up doing so - that was a backslide on my part. I came here to ask for forgiveness. To admit that I was wrong.
I mean this with every sincerity: don't come seeking forgiveness. That places the responsibility on the other person to absolve you. If you truly want to improve and move forward, put your feelings of remorse into the world -- and then let them go. Let people feel their feelings, whether they're to forgive you or not, and let yourself move on. If people want to contact you, they will. But don't apologize with the expectation of forgiveness. Apologize to acknowledge the harm of your actions and perhaps to give yourself some mental closure on that chapter of your life. But also accept that could very well be the end of that chapter. You may not find yourself back in the community -- and that will be okay, too. Sometimes when you're going through the painful process of change, you have to leave big parts behind. Let people have their feelings. Build something better.
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@downwithopp said in An Apology to BSO and BSU.:
When I first read this thread, my intent was to apologize to @faraday - who I put in a terrible spot, because we had communicated numerous times as friends and I had worked within the framework of BSU to help her when I could.
I said it once before, but seriously - leave me out of this. You didn't need to post here to apologize to me. You apologized months ago when I kicked you off BSGU. And you have my email.
I really do want to believe that your apology is sincere. The original post sounded heartfelt, which is why I reached out to say thank you for that. But I don't appreciate being continually used as a prop in your crusade here.
If you are indeed truly sorry, then just say so and leave it at that. No excuses, no arguing, no 'I was frustrated because...', no 'I didn't come here to fight...'. Just 'I'm sorry. I screwed up. I'll try to do better in the future. The end.'
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It was not my intention to go hog pit here. I admittedly have a lot of anger over my past experiences with the OP and it got the better of me but I by no means meant to be rude or mean about it. I apologize.
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Everyone has a lot going in their lives. Just some people want to make sure it's everyone else's problem too. Don't try to justify or explain, really. I feel for someone that has all sorts of terrible reasons they acted out but at the end of the day, there's plenty of people MUs dealing with horrible, horrible shit in their RL that never cause problems for anyone.
Ever.
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@thenomain said in An Apology to BSO and BSU.:
I'm not defending anyone here (I don't know enough to have an opinion), but questioning the idea that others can behave poorly and punish everyone in a thread regardless of the civility of others. I fear the chilling effect this would have, or the power this would give to those who want to drag any thread that they personally want into the Hog Pit.
That's sort of where I'm at. I don't want to give any person or small group, merely on the basis of how pissed off they are, to drag threads into the Hog Pit as well; while this isn't what's happening here, it would be an easy way to make posts less public at will.
My rule of thumb is that if there is a question of whether something needs to be moved, it probably shouldn't.
I will warn people to not try this either. The way it works isn't that if a thread in the Constructive section simply gets moved to the Hog Pit if it becomes bad, but that people are accountable for their own posts, and are kindly requested to not push the limits of civility.
This thread stays - as does the warning.
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....I'm going to be honest here. I was one of the staffers on BSO who had to deal with the OP. In fact, I was the first person who reported his behavior to other staff and was promptly told by Dropkick that he was "just being friendly" and I shouldn't be taking it that way.
He continued crossing many lines -- in character, out of character, and if I'd allowed him to contact me off game, which he'd asked about? Likely IRL. He harassed me. He harassed my friends. He harassed my players.
FIVE complaining parties later, including BOTH female staffers, and he was finally banned. Y'know, after he'd driven several people from the game. We spent months trying to clean up the mess he made, IC and OOC.
This thread is manipulative and disingenuous. It is an attempt to continue inflicting himself on women who have made it abundantly clear in the past that they want nothing to do with him. The fact that it exists has pretty much had me angry enough that I'm surprised blood hasn't come shooting out my nose yet today.
I can go on -- at length, and in some cases with logs I dug up on request a few months back after some people suspected he was back on BSO despite his banning -- about some of the behavior this man displayed on one game. Just one. But here really isn't the place for me to do so because frankly, this? This right here? Is the nicest thing I have to say.
And that's after a full day of trying to temper my post, keeping in mind that it's in the 'Constructive' forum. If any of this player's behaviors are going to be addressed, I'd strongly advise adding a thread to the Hog Pit for it because honestly? I don't think that very many of the people who have dealt with him will be able to express the full extent of their experiences elsewhere.
(Edited for grammar.)
https://whatiswrongwith.me/Mia
There were never any good old days. They are today. They are tomorrow. It's a stupid thing we say, cursing tomorrow with sorrow. -- Gogol Bordello -
To paraphrase a different quote: Start the thread you want to see. I would bet you a dollar that we would get all the stories possible. Heck, keep that dollar; save up for the bottle and pass it around.
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I know for a fact this kind of thing, with this person, goes back to before 2010. He got booted from a game then for indiscretions that carried over into Real Ass Life.
It ain't changing anytime soon.
