Alternative Formats to MU

[faraday]

@lotherio said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I've seen lots of good from newer developments, but I'm also seeing this waltz back to hardcode that MUSH tried to get away from by giving admin all the softcode tools they need to make it what they want

That's more of a philosophical issue and folks will view things differently.

Yes, Ares and Evennia share some similarities with old MU hardcode.

BUT the languages are way easier to learn. The way you code is better. Instead of needing to monkey with stuff as people are playing you have the ability to develop changes locally and easily move them to the game via version control. These are common tools used by open-source hobbyist programmers around the world. Tutorials abound. And unlike MU hardcode, making changes doesn't require you to restart the game.

Also? Think about every game you've been on in the last 10 years. How often do they allow players to create substantial custom systems/objects? How often does anyone take advantage of that ability? How often does the code change appreciably after the beta period?

The new systems are different, sure. There's a learning curve, sure. But I am convinced that they make it easier to customize a game. Not harder.

[Lotherio]

@faraday said in Alternative Formats to MU:

Also? Think about every game you've been on in the last 10 years. How often do they allow players to create substantial custom systems/objects? How often does anyone take advantage of that ability? How often does the code change appreciably after the beta period?

Everything does seem locked down completely of late, seems its been growing far longer than 10 years too. I think in part as the lockdowns started happening in the late 90s, with good reason (all the damn dark puppets and spying), it just continued to spread to all sorts of themes.

I, personally, would love the ability for players to be able to add to the game, even if just rooms, or an object that alters the desc if they want. And yes, if you played on Fifth Kingdom over the summer, you had a quota of 20 (alas, no one checks their build quota or knows about it is my guess). Its being lost, I just think we're moving away from MU and into something newer. Updates are fine, but I think it deserves an updated name too to distinguish it from archaic MU. I miss it, but that is truly dino philosophy and I can accept it in favor of the new.

[Alzie]

@lotherio I think you're possibly the only person i've met that likes the Mush Lisp-like language.

[Thenomain]

Okay, hands up everyone who remembers Nuku making highly involved interactive web pages with his games fifteen years ago.

For the curious, he was using Muck. The only negative aspect of Muck is that it was synonymous with Furry. Sometimes it’s embarrassing how we let trivial things stop us from moving forward.

As long we are catching up.

[faraday]

@lotherio said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I, personally, would love the ability for players to be able to add to the game, even if just rooms, or an object that alters the desc if they want.

Players can build in Ares (and I presume Evennia) if you give them permissions. I don't have a quota currently but it would be easy to add one. And there are ways to alter descs, though not with objects. Evennia even has a quasi-softcode system.

I don't think that the presence or absence of softcode is the defining quality of what makes a MU. More than a few folks have logged onto BSGU - particularly before the web portal took off - and didn't even realize it was a brand-new server and not PennMUSH.

[Sunny]

@lotherio said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I, personally, would love the ability for players to be able to add to the game, even if just rooms, or an object that alters the desc if they want. And yes, if you played on Fifth Kingdom over the summer, you had a quota of 20 (alas, no one checks their build quota or knows about it is my guess). Its being lost, I just think we're moving away from MU and into something newer.

Er, Arx allows for building rooms and objects and the like, as well. It's absolutely not being lost? Both Ares and Evennia (new platforms) have the ability to do this (and the flagship games for both do it), so I'm not sure what you're basing this on. I mean you're factually incorrect here.

[Ganymede]

@sunny said in Alternative Formats to MU:

Both Ares and Evennia (new platforms) have the ability to do this (and the flagship games for both do it), so I'm not sure what you're basing this on.

I think it would be fair to say that, aside from Arx, BSG:U, and 5th Kingdom, games don't allow you to build your own code bits and objects. We used to have those back in the 90s on games, remember?

passes over the sweet tea

Yep, back in the good ol' days.

I don't think it's unreasonable to say that, since then, there was a crackdown on @quota. I mean, as a poll, how many other games out there allow their PC objects to start with @quota? On Fallcoast, quotas are disabled, for example. Quite a few new players I've met don't know how to @dig rooms or connect exits, or even do @osuccs accurately, but these were the sorts of skills most players had about 15 years ago.

Anyhow, I'm glad we're moving back to allowing PC objects some amount of @quota to play with.

[Lotherio]

@sunny said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@lotherio said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I, personally, would love the ability for players to be able to add to the game, even if just rooms, or an object that alters the desc if they want. And yes, if you played on Fifth Kingdom over the summer, you had a quota of 20 (alas, no one checks their build quota or knows about it is my guess). Its being lost, I just think we're moving away from MU and into something newer.

Er, Arx allows for building rooms and objects and the like, as well. It's absolutely not being lost? Both Ares and Evennia (new platforms) have the ability to do this (and the flagship games for both do it), so I'm not sure what you're basing this on. I mean you're factually incorrect here.

Rooms and building is obtuse (unintentionally on my side, my apology), do these games allow players to soft code? To make vehicles, and +phone systems, to make their own +notes systems. To make their own multidescers and organizers and whatchamajigs?

I know I can lift quota on FS3, I've used it. For me, I'd like to be able to use other systems, I like Open D6 myself. How easy to get that on these new systems without having to reteach myself code. I suck at code and I've been learning for over 30 years.

If altering still comes down to learning new code, even for admin, its it a step forward or a step to the side. Improving interface for players is great, but what about game runners? I enjoyed MUSH for so long because the versatility is there and all the help files on the weird things like NCAND()? Do I need NCAND, probably never, but the help file is right there telling me everything I need to know about it.

Not trying to devil's advocate as much as everyone thinks I am, just saying why are we saying these are MUSH or MU* if its something new (something better even); and only cause if someone says MUX or MUSH, I know the versatility latent in the system's help files that I can learn in the game itself.

I like the thread title, alternative format to MU ... its not a MU, what is it, what's its end purpose, etc. I think that could inform some discussion is all.

And I'm down for good ol days, but they're the old days, new days are just as fine.

[Tat]

@faraday said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I don't think that the presence or absence of softcode is the defining quality of what makes a MU. More than a few folks have logged onto BSGU - particularly before the web portal took off - and didn't even realize it was a brand-new server and not PennMUSH.

Totally agree. I started on MOO, where there's no such thing as hard and soft code in the same way there is on MUSH. You could get coding permissions - in the same way someone could branch Ares and code a plug-in and then it could be folded into the main game.

I mean, part of me likes letting players code, because fiddling with toys is how you get new coders, but it's not at all necessary to be a MU.

[RnMissionRun]

@faraday said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@lotherio said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I, personally, would love the ability for players to be able to add to the game, even if just rooms, or an object that alters the desc if they want.

Players can build in Ares (and I presume Evennia) if you give them permissions. I don't have a quota currently but it would be easy to add one. And there are ways to alter descs, though not with objects. Evennia even has a quasi-softcode system.

In Evennia, you simply do @perm person=Builder and they are good to go. There's no quota system (Evennia doesn't really have any notion of object ownership, they simulate it with locks and such).
Evennia doesn't have any kind of 'quasi-softcode' system, unless you're talking about the online Python contrib?

[Sunny]

@lotherio

I don't understand what you're trying to get at. How do you expect to get a stat system to work on a game of ANY TYPE on a computer without code being involved? Are you talking about something like Roll20 where all the books and stuff are pre-programmed in, or what? Like, okay, you don't want to code, how does a game runner make things so they can be used by a computer?

@Ganymede

I have not had the experience that you have had on games in recent history. I actually left a game recently with the leading cause of my problem being specifically linked to their restrictive build policies and the impact those policies have had on their game. Having a quota disabled does not necessarily mean building/creating is disabled, either. A lot of games disable the ability to create, but we are not creating new platforms that don't include the ability, which is the point that was brought forward that I was stating was incorrect.

[Lotherio]

@sunny said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@lotherio

I don't understand what you're trying to get at. How do you expect to get a stat system to work on a game of ANY TYPE on a computer without code being involved? Are you talking about something like Roll20 where all the books and stuff are pre-programmed in, or what? Like, okay, you don't want to code, how does a game runner make things so they can be used by a computer?

Missed my point completely. I want admin and players to want to learn the code. If someone says MUSH, I expect mushcode to work like I know it does. If its not MUSH, then why call it that? If its something new, embrace that?

[faraday]

@Lotherio ---

@tat said in Alternative Formats to MU:

You could get coding permissions - in the same way someone could branch Ares and code a plug-in and then it could be folded into the main game.

That is the envisioned path for players contributing code to Ares, but I do not see it as a common situation.

Here's the thing -- if your goal is to have a fully flexible coding language at your fingertips that players and admins can use from the command line in-game? Penn/Tiny/Rhost is it. It's hard to imagine anything better suited to that purpose, and I'm not going to try.

But that model has tons of down-sides to it, from security to syntax to the sheer awkwardness of trying to code complex systems line-by-line. We've been fighting those down-sides for 30 years.

And what are the up-sides? @Seraphim73 could make a custom multi-descer instead of the built-in one for all the descs that nobody's going to read Someone else could make a custom notepad instead of the built-in one.

In my experience, the vast majority of players neither know nor care to create their own custom softcode, as long as you give them the code they need to play.

So I don't see this as a loss. Others will disagree, I'm sure.

[Sunny]

@lotherio

I don't think anyone here except you is calling not-mushes mushes. MU* has been a long-term abbreviation that includes everything from MUSH to MUD to Ares, because MU is 'multi-user' and * is a wildcard. Pretty sure all of the platforms being discussed are MU*s.

[faraday]

@sunny said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I don't think anyone here except you is calling not-mushes mushes.

Ares is AresMUSH. It's a MUSH because from a player's POV it has all the same basic functionality as PennMUSH and I didn't want to scare people off because "ZOMG IT'S NOT A MUSH". Also, I like the name.

[Sunny]

@faraday said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@sunny said in Alternative Formats to MU:

I don't think anyone here except you is calling not-mushes mushes.

Ares is AresMUSH. It's a MUSH because from a player's POV it has all the same basic functionality as PennMUSH and I didn't want to scare people off because "ZOMG IT'S NOT A MUSH". Also, I like the name.

Okay, my bad!

[Lotherio]

My apology, I think I'm failing to articulate, its just me. I love Ares by the by, and Evennia, I just suck at expressing myself.

[ThatGuyThere]

@arkandel said in Alternative Formats to MU:

For me RP needs to be real time. Again, it doesn't mean this is the only 'valid' way to do it, but that's what would work for me.

This would be the biggest sticking point for me to move away from telnet. If the RP is not real time I lose interest. I tend to wander a bit waiting for a pose if it is longer than 5 minutes. With MUSH this is when i get my house work done peeking back every couple of minutes until things pick up. Sadly with web based this would be were I found a video to watch and the scene would likely be forgotten about.

[Seraphim73]

@faraday said in Alternative Formats to MU:

And what are the up-sides? @Seraphim73 could make a custom multi-descer instead of the built-in one for all the descs that nobody's going to read Someone else could make a custom notepad instead of the built-in one.

Now why would I do that? No one's going to read them anyway. Heh.

Also, I totally can't code. I should get on that though, just to build my own custom multi-descer in every system known to MU*kind.

[Auspice]

@seraphim73 said in Alternative Formats to MU:

@faraday said in Alternative Formats to MU:

And what are the up-sides? @Seraphim73 could make a custom multi-descer instead of the built-in one for all the descs that nobody's going to read Someone else could make a custom notepad instead of the built-in one.

Now why would I do that? No one's going to read them anyway. Heh.

Also, I totally can't code. I should get on that though, just to build my own custom multi-descer in every system known to MU*kind.

Many years ago I built my own multidescer for a game that didn't have one.
Back when I cared about having more than one desc.