Armageddon MUD

Tinuviel

but is your job as a staffer to protect your players against the staffers you hired or the players you have on your game?

Well... no, no it isn't. The job of a game-runner is to run the game. Some percentage of that will be disciplinary in nature, but they have other responsibilities too. And lives outside of that. If one offered @faraday or @Derp proof that a staffer was engaging in horrid behaviour against players outside of their game, actual proof, then I'm sure they'd act.

My job isn't to protect my students, it's to be their teacher. Some percentage of that is to protect and discipline them, but not the majority. If students fight at school, then I act. If students fight outside of the school (such that my duty of care doesn't apply) I don't, it's beyond my remit. But I'd probably keep them apart.

Derp

@Meg said in Armageddon MUD:

eta: and i'm not saying 'every bad person in the world'. but is your job as a staffer to protect your players against the staffers you hired or the players you have on your game? i think yes.

I think no. My job, as a staffer, is to ensure the rules of the game are followed and that people are given the tools to help control their own experience, to the extent that I am capable of doing so.

If someone is harassing you via MSB, then that is the problem of the MSB Admins, because it occurs in that space. You can block them. You can report them. The MSB Admins can determine what steps they wish to approach.

If that behavior bleeds over into the game, then I can take the necessary steps because I have that toolset, and it is explicitly against our game's policies.

Here is the thing: It is not my job to protect you from a player. It is my job to uphold the standards that we set for behaviors in our environment. That is the key difference. I am not here to mother hen between two people and show people acceptable life behaviors on either side, because frankly, it's none of my business and I am not qualified to do so in any event. I'm here to enforce the rules of the game.

You break the rules of the game, you're in my arena.

You want to be a fucking weirdo outside of the game, then that becomes a matter for whoever controls that space, or potentially law enforcement. I take no ownership of whatever you do in those arenas.

PROTIP: You don't want someone being fucking weird at you outside of the game, don't give them that info. If you suspect that they have received that info through illicit means, then I can try to investigate, I guess, but my ability to do so is extremely limited, so. Just don't.

TNP

@Meg said in Armageddon MUD:

@faraday if someone is sexually harassing a person that they play with on your game through MSB, i don't think the median really matters. you're free to have your own opinion. i respect that you do. i just don't agree.

And how do they prove it? What's to say that the so-called victim isn't pursuing a vendetta against the other person? Yes, that happens as well. It is also not unknown in this hobby for a clique to target someone so multiple accusers aren't a guarantee of Truth.

Tinuviel

@Derp I would say that if quid pro quo is offered (if you do this thing, you'll get perks on @Derp's game) or if they're explicitly using the fact that they are staff on your game... and some manner of proof is evident, it bears investigation regardless as to where it taking place. If not for moral reasons, then for reasons of simple optics and association.

ETA: I believe the same should apply to breaking any rule of one's game when acting as a representative or in obvious connection to the game. Sharing important character secrets (for games with explicit important secrets) on MSB, for example.

Derp

@Tinuviel said in Armageddon MUD:

@Derp I would say that if quid pro quo is offered (if you do this thing, you'll get perks on @Derp's game) or if they're explicitly using the fact that they are staff on your game... and some manner of proof is evident, it bears investigation regardless as to where it taking place. If not for moral reasons, then for reasons of simple optics and association.

I mean, yes, to an extent. There are always going to be gray areas. But it comes down to a matter of proof, really. Have I seen this sort of behavior from this person? Can I see a pattern that shows that such is in play? Can I prove that the evidence provided is legitimate?

I'm not really qualified to make those kinds of calls. What I am qualified to do is tell people to not engage in out-of-the-game communications, and give people the tools to help manage their in-game experiences using tools that I know to be hard-as-hell to alter.

Here, have another policy snippet for an example of "How To Prove A Thing"

Complaints

At times, all attempts to resolve OOC conflict with another player will fail, and it will be necessary to involve staff. Staff is here to assist with dispute resolution, and will take appropriate actions as necessary to resolve such disputes, while minimizing disruption to the story and to the community as a whole to the extent possible.

Any player wishing to lodge a complaint to staff about any player or staffer will need to provide evidence of the disputed conduct or incident to staff, either via the in-game systems available for the purpose or via an unmodified screenshot of the disputed conduct or incident if it occurs in a social media space controlled by $GAMENAME. Luckily, AresMUSH provides a wealth of tools to flag and log inappropriate content and conduct. They are:

pm/report <conversation>=<range of messages from page review>/<reason>

Example: page/report Ao=2-5/Told me that he would raise me to godhood if I showed him my boobs.

channel/report <channel>=<explanation>

Example: channel/report chat=A player really laid into a guest here using some inappropriate language.

Inappropriate mail can be forwarded to a staffer using the standard mail commands:

mail/fwd <#>=<to>/[<comment>]

Example: mail/fwd 3=Selune/I really think that this is inappropriate, and someone should look into it.

Client-side logs will not be accepted as evidence of inappropriate conduct on $GAMENAME, as they are readily edited by the player lodging the complaint, and can be used to provide a false picture of the incident to staff. Hearsay and screenshots that have been modified are also not acceptable evidence on which to base a complaint. All necessary tools to capture inappropriate content and conduct on the game are available in the code, and these tools and unmodified screenshots are the only acceptable methods for complaint reporting.

Staff act as neutral arbiters in all cases, and any staffer involved in a dispute will not be eligible to arbitrate the dispute in question. All disputes will be adjudicated, and actions chosen, based on the evidence provided to staff. Complaints submitted without evidence will not be entertained.

Tinuviel

@Derp Well yes, if you're looking at it from a specific game or a specific MU-system, you can have all those kinds of rules as the code allows. I'm speaking in more general terms, since not all games and not all systems have those tools.

Pandora

The accuser shares an IP address with someone that has been found to have tried to instigate drama against this staffer in the past; the odds of that being a coincidence are slim enough that it can't be ignored.

In today's social climate, you will always get a handful of upvotes for 'Better safe than sorry - fire them!' posts because that's the easy answer that seemingly solves the issue. Except now you're down one staffer that may well be a victim of someone's prank or vendetta.

Also, did you lot read that Discord conversation? That was so 0-100 it was pretty much the Pornhub version of 'Let's Be A Sleazy MU Staffer'; anyone that's been staffing on one game for over a decade who is that indiscreet with a completely new player is going to have a track record a mile long with other new players, not just people who after 10 years don't like them anymore after being banned. And if that's the case and they haven't been fired yet, this is just a waste of time, don't play there.

Derp

@Tinuviel said in Armageddon MUD:

@Derp Well yes, if you're looking at it from a specific game or a specific MU-system, you can have all those kinds of rules as the code allows. I'm speaking in more general terms, since not all games and not all systems have those tools.

My point was more 'have explicit policies and lay out exactly what is expected of people'.

In this case, we don't accept client-side logs because frankly, it's a lot of work to go back and check those and you have easier tools to work with. Other games, as mentioned, can use different systems, including asking for timestamped client logs to check against the server.

Everyone has some set of tools that they can use, and some guidelines as to what is and is not acceptable as evidence in that regard. Or if they don't, then they damn well should. I can't make a general policy because the tools available are vastly different, but as a general policy, everyone should have a specific policy tailored to their game, their needs, their desires, and their tools.

Tinuviel

@Pandora You know we're talking generally now, right? And not about this MUD in particular?

Pandora

@Tinuviel said in Armageddon MUD:

@Pandora You know we're talking generally now, right? And not about this MUD in particular?

You know what thread we're in right?

Tinuviel

@Pandora said in Armageddon MUD:

@Tinuviel said in Armageddon MUD:

@Pandora You know we're talking generally now, right? And not about this MUD in particular?

You know what thread we're in right?

An advertising thread that hasn't been advertising for the last million replies?
Like every other thread that we have ever had on this board?

faraday

@Meg said in Armageddon MUD:

eta: and i'm not saying 'every bad person in the world'. but is your job as a staffer to protect your players against the staffers you hired or the players you have on your game? i think yes.

I think no. Because if they player isn't doing anything wrong on the game, then what exactly am I 'protecting' them from? The possibility that they might do something bad? That's a slippery slope IMHO.

@Derp said in Armageddon MUD:

Here is the thing: It is not my job to protect you from a player. It is my job to uphold the standards that we set for behaviors in our environment.

Exactly this. I've seen players who were banned from one game flourish on another. I've seen players who are complete a-holes on MSB but perfectly well-behaved on games. It's not the person that's usually the problem, it's the behavior.

Now of course there are always extreme situations that might be exceptions to this. If I know for a fact that someone is a serial harasser, or stalking someone RL, or something really awful like that... I may choose to act differently. But in general I don't think it's staff's job to police off-game behavior. Especially when establishing that proof for an off-game venue is often tough if not impossible.

Pandora

@Tinuviel Be that as it may, it's turned into a back and forth based on the incident in question regarding this game, and if you don't care to continue discussing Armageddon Mud in the thread called Armageddon Mud you're of course perfectly able to ignore my post and continue on around without being condescending as if somehow it's ME that's gone off topic, thanks.

L. B. Heuschkel

One factor which is also somewhat important isn't technological but social. Atmosphere and game culture matters a lot. In a supportive environment that doesn't tolerate stalking, grooming and other abusive behaviour, stalkers, groomers and abusers will be rarer.

Whereas in a toxic community where no one gives a fig in the name of 'free speech', the people who are considered prey will leave. For me, the turning point that made me leave WoW, for instance, was exactly that: I realised I spent one hour in eight actually -roleplaying- and the rest of my communications with other people were either helping them deal with someone being toxic at them, or watching people be toxic at me. Every public statement anyone made seemed to attract a horde of rabid alt-right recruiters, every female had a following of males either trying to get in her pants or telling her off because fuck girls the internet is for porn. The game became a hotbed of extreme rightwing politics, blatant racism and sexism, and Blizzard's infamous stance of 'not violating our community standards', a concept they take to almost Zuckerbergian levels.

At some point it's just enough. People, the sane people, dropped like flies. My friends were gone or leaving. You get off the sinking boat, leave it to the numberchasers and the edgelords trying to out-nazi each other.

TLDR: The first hurdle in preventing online abuse is to create a community in which abusers do not feel welcomed.

Deleted

Armageddon is a festering pile if the people defending staff pull the Trump defense and just want nobody to dig deeper.

SHABALABADOO IS GOOD GUY! HE DO GOOD GUY THING! DO NOT ASK QUESTION!

Yeah...

Derp

This post is deleted!

Derp

Responded to the wrong damn thread. FFS. It's too early.

Derp

@L-B-Heuschkel said in Armageddon MUD:

Atmosphere and game culture matters a lot. In a supportive environment that doesn't tolerate stalking, grooming and other abusive behaviour, stalkers, groomers and abusers will be rarer.
Whereas in a toxic community where no one gives a fig in the name of 'free speech', the people who are considered prey will leave.

Responding to the right thread this time --

-- I don't agree with this, actually. I mean, to most of it I do, in that you should be rooting out undesirable OOC behaviors, certainly.

But I also agree that this depends heavily on the game's environment and atmosphere, and game culture.

Here's the thing that we all seem to have forgotten at some point -- every game is different, and more importantly is trying to cater to a different set of people that hold different values. But yet we keep talking about them in terms of universals like there is some sort of Declaration of Universal Gamer Rights out there that is in force.

There isn't. Nor should there be. Gamerunners and creators are trying to offer a specific experience to a specific group of people, in most instances, and those values can clash greatly. What some people consider abusive behavior (which, let's be real, is pretty goddamn broad and at times a little questionable) is perfectly reasonable to a different set of people, and the ultimate authority on what is or is not acceptable is the one running the game. If I want to run a Dark Sun game where everyone starts as an Arena Slave and then gets to fight their way to freedom, that isn't going to appeal to some people. It doesn't have to. It shouldn't. If you're fresh off of a MLP Mu, it's probably going to seem like the most hideous and abusive thing in the world to you, and a toxic environment that you don't want to be a part of.

And you shouldn't be.

Despite what some others might think, there is no objective test for what is and is not permissible. It's only subjective. And like all subjective things, you ultimately have to vote your own conscience, and decide whether to be a part of that experience/group or not.

That does not make either party wrong. It means that there are different standards and different values across different venues.

L. B. Heuschkel

@Derp No, actually I think we do agree -- particularly if I rush to cede that the main error of the big MMOs is indeed that they try to cater to everyone in order to get their hands into more pockets, and thus end up catering rather poorly.

There's a difference between the game catering to a particular theme and group, though, and the OOC atmosphere. If someone wants to set up a hardcore vampire vore BDSM fetishist anything-you-can-imagine-but-worse mush, let them. Nothing in that says toxic OOC environment. It may be the most supportive, caring OOC environment ever, just like the most bland and boring D&D style my little fuzzball love bear game may have an OOC atmosphere in which grooming and pedophilia is considered par for the course.

I think I was just unclear on the difference between IC and OOC. It's toxic OOC atmosphere that needs considered -- what happens IC shouldn't matter (and in a safe and non-toxic environment usually won't).

Tinuviel

@Derp Though a Universal Declaration of Rights would be ridiculous, I do believe that there is a vast majority of people that hold certain OOC behaviours to be reprehensible regardless of what game they're playing on. Not IC behaviours, OOC ones. I'd even go so far as to argue many of these objections are objectively sound - the detestation of stalking and grooming, for instance.