Charging for MU* Code?

Deleted · Feb 4, 2018, 2:28 PM

Those prices are super low. I'd give you 100 bucks to set up a game for it.

D-bone · Feb 4, 2018, 8:38 PM

Heres a question-

What if I want you to design and code an incredibly complicated new xp system?

Jennkryst · Feb 4, 2018, 9:03 PM

I will happily throw money at folks when I'm not dealing with Deer v Car fallout. Whoop whoop.

magee101 · Feb 4, 2018, 9:10 PM

@thenomain This seems like a fair (and far cheaper than would actually normally find for a programmer) list of prices. Just as long as both parties can come to an agreement on final price before services are rendered and as long as you as the Coder, when you see it might take more than what you previously agreed to, let them know before you just forge on ahead expecting them to pay the final no matter what, I think it's a great idea.

Arkandel · Feb 4, 2018, 10:42 PM

@thenomain I think the first question would be to ask yourself what you're doing it for; either you're a professional getting paid, or you're a hobbyist making a buck on the side.

If it's the former then you need to be paid the usual way; market price for your time investment. That means having a contract, a deliverable goal set in advance, a timetable, and as little maintenance after as possible; this is where many coders for hire realize they got screwed, when they spend twice as much on a project that's over implementing "oh, and one more thing" things.

If it's the latter I'd be very careful. To some degree you're enjoying and taking pride in what you're doing, but getting paid for it brings in some extra burdens - dealing with expectations, obligations and financial haggling; you ~~probably~~ don't want to get in a situation where you need to nag a friend, or someone who's friendly, for money owed, or to withhold features from a live game for that reason.

Personally I think charging $20 for an uncoded sphere is insanely cheap. Even the $$ per hour price is really low, but at least consider protecting yourself with an estimate of how long it would take beforehand. We all know how time can get away from you while you're coding.

I hope this didn't sound discouraging.

Coin · Feb 6, 2018, 12:29 PM

If you charge, have a timetable, stick to it, like any other sidejob.

Volunteering has the advantage that you can decide not to work on it one day and no one ~~will~~ has any right to get huffy.

You can poke me in private for more personal thoughts on the matter, when I've got the time. But everything everyone else said is also true.

Apos · Feb 6, 2018, 4:14 PM

To me it just sounded like you didn't want to feel like you were being a huge dick by saying no to people you wished you had time to help, and putting up costs would help reduce how much you're asked. I think it would help a bit, but yeah you then might get way more stressed out and feel a lot more guilt and obligation for the ones you do take. Hard to say, since I mean really only you know you and this sounded not really about money at all but for your peace of mind.

Tat · Feb 6, 2018, 5:29 PM

@apos said in Charging for MU* Code?:

To me it just sounded like you didn't want to feel like you were being a huge dick by saying no to people you wished you had time to help, and putting up costs would help reduce how much you're asked. I think it would help a bit, but yeah you then might get way more stressed out and feel a lot more guilt and obligation for the ones you do take. Hard to say, since I mean really only you know you and this sounded not really about money at all but for your peace of mind.

I kind of suspect this could backfire, too. Like, if I could pay for code to magically appear, I'd probably do it. But not knowing Theno really, I'd never be like 'hey, dude, could you do this for me for free?'

One of the things about the hobby growing up is that many of us have more money than time to throw at things these days. Just something to keep in mind.

JinShei · Feb 6, 2018, 5:54 PM

When I was asking @chime for a lot of work, I paid her. Because there is asking for help and then there is taking the piss. I'd pay for code, if I still ran a game but yes, be careful of why you are doing it and the unintended outcomes (people's expectations change if they are paying for stuff).

Taika · Feb 6, 2018, 6:12 PM

I... maybe just totally had this mental image of Theno as the hottest girl in the strip club with all us MU*ers waving ones at him. It was glorious.

My crazy brain aside, I think that alot of the changing expectations can be managed (somewhat, with the rare and elusive 'reasonable person') just by communicating. 'Hey, this is being a pain in the butt and will take a bit longer.' or 'Wow, that wetn easier than expected.'

Something else to consider might be just setting up a paypal with an 'ish' of the sort of tip you would like to see. Some folks can pay more, some maybe less, but it'd be cool, cause I bet there's a LOT of folks that have benefited from the ThenoCode that'd toss a fiver in the pot, even if they aren't running a game - just because he's one of a handful of coders that have done a lot for us as a hobby in general.

Ganymede · Feb 6, 2018, 6:33 PM

@taika said in Charging for MU* Code?:

I... maybe just totally had this mental image of Theno as the hottest girl in the strip club with all us MU*ers waving ones at him. It was glorious.

Jennkryst · Feb 7, 2018, 3:52 AM

@taika said in Charging for MU* Code?:

I... maybe just totally had this mental image of Theno as the hottest girl in the strip club with all us MU*ers waving ones at him.

I might not be able to make it rain yet, but I can definitely make it hail.

Tinuviel · Feb 7, 2018, 7:07 AM

The only thing I'd worry about with charging for MU* code is the problem of scope creep. If people are paying money, they're going to start thinking they're in charge of what you do.

Arkandel · Feb 7, 2018, 2:51 PM

@tinuviel said in Charging for MU* Code?:

The only thing I'd worry about with charging for MU* code is the problem of scope creep. If people are paying money, they're going to start thinking they're in charge of what you do.

Well, to be fair, with good reason. That's what hiring someone for money means.

The issue is imposing reasonable limits to where that work begins and where it ends.

Tinuviel · Feb 7, 2018, 11:55 PM

@arkandel Except you're not hiring someone. You're contracting someone. It's a subtle difference that I'm sure more experienced folks could explain better.

Tempest · Feb 8, 2018, 12:14 AM

If you commission somebody to do something, you don't get to stand over their shoulder and nitpick every little detail of what they're doing. Which is what I imagine the specific issue would be in "paying for MU code". People in this hobby are notorious for being crazy, specifically in regards to BOUNDARIES and failing to recognize them.

They don't actually work for you. They are delivering you a product. You do not get any say at all in how they are making that product.

faraday · Feb 8, 2018, 12:17 AM

@tempest said in Charging for MU* Code?:

They are delivering you a product. You do not get any say at all in how they are making that product.

Yeah, that's really actually not how software development works. So best of luck to Theno and anyone else who decides to try to negotiate a software contract, a feat that even professional software dev companies struggle with daily.

Tempest · Feb 8, 2018, 12:19 AM

@faraday said in Charging for MU* Code?:

@tempest said in Charging for MU* Code?:

They are delivering you a product. You do not get any say at all in how they are making that product.

Yeah, that's really actually not how software development works. So best of luck to Theno and anyone else who decides to try to negotiate a software contract, a feat that even professional software dev companies struggle with daily.

Really, we're talking about contracts and shit?

"Hey Theno, here's 50$, can you set me up a base COFD game with vampire added?"

"Sure, thing, give me a week."

If Theno sucks, word will get out and nobody will ever do this again.

faraday · Feb 8, 2018, 5:53 AM

@tempest said in Charging for MU* Code?:

Really, we're talking about contracts and shit?

Uh, you kinda replied to a post about "contracts and crap" with comments about commissions, so yeah - that's what we're talking about. I agree that doing it as a favor-with-a-tip or as a paetron type deal is the better solution here than trying to deal with it as a contract-for-hire and dealing with the inevitable scope creep that always happens (which is what @Tinuviel was commenting upon when you replied.)

skew · Feb 8, 2018, 2:33 AM

@Thenomain I think listing "suggested donation" and setting up a Patreon or whatever for people to kick money into would help. Admittedly, I don't know how Patreon works exactly, but taking on projects as they come, on your own time, with your own preferences, and having a way for people to send money to you sounds a lot better. Plus, I bet if BrandNewGameX(tm) had a good showing, the owners would link said account and you'd get players tossing in.

This will keep your hobby a hobby, your good will gesture just that, plus you'd have a little extra scratch come rent due.

@Sunny - Just to give an idea, I coded posebreak and repose, and it was probably upwards to 20 hours? More? To get through it all. There was a lot of time sit staring at screams and trying to figure out what commands and functions were available, and some of that would be reduced by someone who knows the code better, but to dump 40 hours into a system isn't unrealistic, if you include time spent planning, tweaking, debugging, etc.