What's missing in MUSHdom?

[faraday]

@thenomain said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

What is "Social RP"?

By my definition: Any scene that does not involve plot events or move a plot forward in any way. Usually it's characters just sitting around chit-chatting. Getting to know you RP, "BarRP" in its many forms (the bar, the commons, the hangar deck, the restaurant, the mess hall, the gym, the coffee pot in the doctor's lounge, ...), courtship RP, bringing someone flowers in the hospital, etc.

Note: I'm not saying any of this is bad. It's the glue that holds characters together. Without social RP, when the zombies attack it's just you and a bunch of strangers you have no connection to. And after the zombies are gone you just go your separate ways until the next attack. Social RP is essential, IMHO, which is why I don't really understand the assertion that it damages some settings.

[Kanye Qwest]

@faraday Ok but that's not what I was referring to. I meant the type of social rp that ignores a setting element. It's having 'pizza and movie night' in an apocalypse. It's having fifteen outfits and doing a secret santa in a fantasy garbage world where everyone is starving.

The 'problem' (and it is only a problem in some settings) is when people left to their own devices rp things that make no sense because it's easy and familiar, and that is most of the activity available.

You can have social rp by your definition (and you SHOULD) in any setting, doing things that make sense. you can have quiet conversations while trying to maintain/find/stock a shelter. You can take downtime.

[Haven]

@kanye-qwest said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

@faraday Ok but that's not what I was referring to. I meant the type of social rp that ignores a setting element. It's having 'pizza and movie night' in an apocalypse. It's having fifteen outfits and doing a secret santa in a fantasy garbage world where everyone is starving.

The 'problem' (and it is only a problem in some settings) is when people left to their own devices rp things that make no sense because it's easy and familiar, and that is most of the activity available.

You can have social rp by your definition (and you SHOULD) in any setting, doing things that make sense. you can have quiet conversations while trying to maintain/find/stock a shelter. You can take downtime.

So, less of a commentary on social RP and more of a commentary on being thematic. Like when you meet a homeless person who RPs working really hard to be super clean. Whatever, super clean homeless person!

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@kanye-qwest said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

@faraday Ok but that's not what I was referring to. I meant the type of social rp that ignores a setting element. It's having 'pizza and movie night' in an apocalypse. It's having fifteen outfits and doing a secret santa in a fantasy garbage world where everyone is starving.

This was my issue with the zombie game No Return, admittedly. There was a disconnect between what the game was billed as, zombie survival, and what a lot of people ended up playing, which sometimes felt more like RP camping trip with interpersonal drama. I do think the persistent setting and 24/7 RP set-up of a MU environment is going to be a detriment to that kind of theme. Not sure how you solve this on a public game of any size, though RPI/MUD-like environment elements would probably help.

[Lotherio]

@kanye-qwest said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

doing a secret santa in a fantasy garbage world where everyone is starving.

Ask troops deployed overseas about this; I've been there. Doing this and exchanging MRE bits might give them a sense of normalcy in a world were their buddy could die in a couple of hours. Sure, it might just be an 'hey, its Christmas back home merry christmas, I owe you a present ...' Sure, some of the troops might think its stupid and think the person doing it is stupid, but that one moment of offering a gift when really, you don't have squat to give, is sort of that 'remember how it was before we were in this shit' moments.

It less a question of would it happen then someone defining theme differently. One person wants zombie apocalypse with bad hygiene, halitosis, and body bugs, someone else wants hollywood version where people can kiss even if there is no toothpaste left in the world?

[Ominous]

@faraday said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

Oh I agree that the struggle to survive should be a part of the game. But I think you need to address that in a fun and interesting way if you want people to engage with it. Computer games (not just MUSHes) have been trying to "force" people into menial tasks since the beginning. Players as a general rule hate it. They avoid it whenever humanly possible and they resent it when it's not possible to avoid. If you can make a survival mini-game fun for the majority of the population, or if you can figure out a way to make "foraging for berries" interesting, then as @Thenomain said, there's no reason not to go for it.

The popularity of Minecraft, Subnautica, Day Z, Ark, and Don't Starve contradicts your supposition that players avoid menial tasks.

[MagicGirl57]

@ominous Don't forget Left 4 Dead.

[Haven]

@calindra said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

@ominous Don't forget Left 4 Dead.

Or Rust! Wood chopping 4 life!!!!1

[faraday]

@ominous said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

The popularity of Minecraft, Subnautica, Day Z, Ark, and Don't Starve contradicts your supposition that players avoid menial tasks.

It really doesn't. It proves the supposition that if you make the menial task fun or worthwhile then it's no longer menial.

@lotherio said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

It less a question of would it happen then someone defining theme differently. One person wants zombie apocalypse with bad hygiene, halitosis, and body bugs, someone else wants hollywood version where people can kiss even if there is no toothpaste left in the world?

Yeah I think this is the larger issue. I never played No Return, but I've seen the "people playing house while the world is ending" complaint about a number of games. Obviously players RPing wildly out of theme is a problem, whether that's folks acting like there's food enough for a banquet in a zombie game or folks walking up and hugging the queen in a L&L one. I fail to see how that's related to Social RP specifically.

[Lotherio]

@ominous said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

@faraday said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

Oh I agree that the struggle to survive should be a part of the game. But I think you need to address that in a fun and interesting way if you want people to engage with it. Computer games (not just MUSHes) have been trying to "force" people into menial tasks since the beginning. Players as a general rule hate it. They avoid it whenever humanly possible and they resent it when it's not possible to avoid. If you can make a survival mini-game fun for the majority of the population, or if you can figure out a way to make "foraging for berries" interesting, then as @Thenomain said, there's no reason not to go for it.

The popularity of Minecraft, Subnautica, Day Z, Ark, and Don't Starve contradicts your supposition that players avoid menial tasks.

Compare Minecraft to the big old grind of Final Fantasy 1 on NES.

Minecraft is immediate return, chop up wood, get stone, make a house, go get more, make something bigger. But its immediate return, getting 1 block isn't a long task and you can affect the game world significantly with little effort.

Final Fantasy, 10-20 hours to reach level 40 for the only significant change in the game. You're tiny guy icon gets a little bigger. Weapons change, but its more like white sword is level 1, blue sword is level two and hours of grinding to get there.

[Ominous]

@faraday What's fun and worthwhile, though? Before Minecraft, would many of us have honestly thought that a game about digging would be one of the most popular games of all time?

I want survival mechanics in my MUs. It was one of the main selling points of Firan for me and why I dabbled in Carrier RPI. Most normal MUs just devolve into BarP time otherwise, and I can do that in real life. Maybe it's a sign I should be RPI-ing it up instead of playing MUSHes.

[The Sands]

@faraday said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

It really doesn't. It proves the supposition that if you make the menial task fun or worthwhile then it's no longer menial.

Please excuse a brief detour to Semanticsland here but I think it may be necessary.

Technically some definitions of 'menial' are things such as "not requiring much skill and lacking prestige" and if you use those definitions then it is, at least in theory, possible for something to be menial yet still fun (I don't know how off hand. I'm just saying that the definition does not explicitly exclude fun).

On the other hand Mirrian-Webster gives the definition as "lacking interest or dignity" and they aren't alone in their definition, either. Using that type of definition it would seem to be impossible to be both menial and fun (since I think there has to be a component of interest for something to be fun).

And before anyone accuses me of being a grammar nazi or Semanticsman or anything of the sort, in a discourse it is important that people be clear when using a term that they are using it the same way. If I tell you I can pick up a blue whale we can't have a meaningful discussion about the possibility if you think I mean the cetacean when I am talking about a small bath toy. In neither case would one of us be 'wrong' because we are each using very real definitions of the words that can be pointed to. We would not be able to have any kind of meaningful conversation, however.

So I would propose that perhaps a different less ambiguous word should be used and perhaps context added for 'what is meant when I say this'.

[Lotherio]

@ominous said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

What's fun and worthwhile, though? Before Minecraft, would many of us have honestly thought that a game about digging would be one of the most popular games of all time?

Yes. Minecraft was inspired by a prior digging game, Infinimier. They are sandbox collection games. Ever played Elite, a space trading/collection (money), where it literally took hours to fly between systems to conduct trade? I enjoyed this, but if I want to play it now, I play Oolite, an updated version created by fans with faster space travel. Collecting games have given rise to the current trend of Idle/Incremental Games; some of the older ones were just poking fun at grinding collecting games even.

Newer games are cutting down on the boring grinding parts by offering other things to occupy the gamer, as mentioned, like mini-games.

[Lotherio]

Double to say, Infimier is a good study of game design (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zachtronics#Infiniminer).

Note, it started as team competitive play to locate and find precious metals, but ends up players enjoyed in-world building. The game changed to suit the fun the players found. Similar to the Sims, it started out as an architectural game based on Sid using home building software to design a home. Added the people to give an idea of something looked good or not based on building a better home and he noticed others were more interested in the people's reactions, which lead to Sims.

A tangent, or maybe something to consider for the topic.

[faraday]

@lotherio said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

Newer games are cutting down on the boring grinding parts by offering other things to occupy the gamer, as mentioned, like mini-games.

Yeah, you don't have to look far on the internet to find tons of people complaining about "the grind" in various games, finding ways around it - including exploits or automation - and whatnot. Minecraft has creative mode and a gazillion articles out there about how to farm/grind resources most efficiently because a significant number of people hate to do it. Also, Minecraft and MMOs are hellishly addictive, so proving that you can get somebody to do something repetitive and boring if you make the game addictive enough is maybe not the best treatise.

So yes, games with grinds still become popular. My assertion is that they become popular in spite of the grind, not because of it.

[Thenomain]

So now I have a follow-up question:

Why bother trying what's missing if people are most likely going to RP what's "comfortable and familiar" anyhow?

Why shouldn't I keep making WoD games until the end of time?

[Nightshade]

@thenomain said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

Why shouldn't I keep making WoD games until the end of time?

You wouldn't have to keep making them if you make a good one. In order to do that, it would help to check what the previous ones have been missing. Have your cake and eat it.

[Thenomain]

@nightshade

I've made good ones.

I've made great ones.

I've made bad ones.

I've made boring ones.

But if all people want to play are Social MU*s with RPG elements, then why bother making anything else?

This is a deeply depressing answer to me, and I hope that there is room for more.

[Three-Eyed Crow]

@thenomain
There's room for more. Some of us have never played on a WoD MU quite happily. Some things about different games are similar, some are different. Some succeed, some fail. Some are well-implemented, some are poorly implemented. I don't think it has too much to do with WoD or not-WoD.

[Thenomain]

@three-eyed-crow

Understood, and you may note that I expanded my summary to "Social MU* with RPG elements" which is 95% of what I see people defaulting to.

Apparently when people say they want "something to do", it has a specific meaning.

That we used to make our own fun and somehow can't anymore has baffled me for a while.

Also note that I don't make my own games, but I code the games of those I feel have a strong game design ethic. Knowing your strengths and weaknesses is a critical life trait.