What's missing in MUSHdom?

[ZombieGenesis]

@ixokai For me 5E is hands down the best iteration of D&D I've ever played (and I've been playing since the early 80's). It's slick, streamlined, and I can pretty much make any character I can imagine. It took the best parts of 3E and trimmed out all the fat. It's easy to get into, easy to play, and not as fiddily as some other systems (like Pathfinder). Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed Pathfinder too but when we introduced some new players to our TT group Pathfinder was just too overwhelming for them. They slipped right into 5E though without any problems at all.

For 5E fans I may have something coming up that interests you, I've been working on a character generation system and may need some volunteers to help test out phase 1 to make sure it all holds together.

[Arkandel]

@ixokai said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

@arkandel Really? I don't know a lot about 5E, but what I've seen of it... I don't exactly know that I like. If I had partners I'd probably code the hell out of Pathfinder, but what's it about 5E for you that does it?

So many things, some of which would probably apply to everyone and some that might not.

To get the latter out of the way, I grew up on AD&D, and I read a shitload of novels in the 90s. Nostalgia is huge, and I'd love to adventure on Krynn or in Waterdeep or wherever.

But for 5E in particular, it's so well balanced despite having many classes and toolkits to pick from. Combat is very streamlined, easy to follow and fast to resolve, and theoretically since it's pretty popular finding resources online is so easy - anything from character generators to long treatises on its mechanics is available with one google search.

They did a hell of a job with this one, and I'm not even someone who likes systems in general - I'm quite happy playing without mechanics, but these ones aren't in the way but rather they enhance gameplay.

[ixokai]

@ZombieGenesis @Arkandel Hrm, I might have to look at 5E again. I'm generally a monk guy, DND wise, and I always got the impression monks were steamrolled over into blah in 5E, which might have colored my opine. I didn't look close beyond that.

[ZombieGenesis]

@ixokai 5E has actually made me a fan of some classes that I wasn't a fan of before, namely the Monk, the Warlord(the Battlemaster archetype for the fighter), and...the Bard. There's really not a class I would not play in 5E. And there is a shocking amount of variety and versatility in every class. I played in a TT game where we were all clerics and we were all very different and the group was shockingly well balanced. I definitely suggest giving 5E a look.

[Sparks]

For me, 5e has just the right amount of crunch-to-story ratio. You have enough crunch and mechanics to keep things interesting, but its streamlined enough that the story keeps moving at a decent clip regardless.

As a former Pathfinder player, going back to Pathfinder after playing 5e feels (to me) like you end up spending a lot more time rolling dice and a lot less time actually advancing the campaign in a meaningful manner.

There's other bits too—they've done careful balancing of the classes, so that regardless of what you play you can still have an interesting and meaningful role to play in the party—that contribute to my fondness for 5e, but it's really the crunch-to-story-advancement ratio that won me over.

This isn't to say that Pathfinder's flawed or somehow a lesser system, just that for me 5e seems the best D&D (or D&D-adjacent) system I've yet played.

[Auspice]

I could never get into Pathfinder. I'm not sure why, for all that I love(d) 3/3.5, but Pathfinder just felt... like I'd been boxed into something. It was like 'Here's 3/3.5, but... we're gonna cut off the corners, make the room a lot smaller, take away half the colors aaaaaaaaaaaaaand there you go! Have fun now. Within certain parame- oh no, not that fun. Sorry. Forgot to remove that bit. Okay. Now you can have your Council Approved Modified Fun.'

Anyway.

I've barely gotten to play 5E, but I do like it. And I think it could work for MU*. 3/3.5 was such an unwieldy mess for MU*, I think, because there was just so much going on and I think 5E manages to streamline a lot of things really well that it could work.

It's just so new that it would probably be best if you had a team working on coding it up, yeah. I'm also not sure it's a fit for Ares, knowing what I do about Ares. I'd almost point to Evennia over Ares. Esp. since in Evennia, you could design 'dungeon modules' for a...

...
Hmmm.

I may have an idea for a python project once I'm done with school.

[Arkandel]

@zombiegenesis You know what really impressed me, too?

They didn't just balance the classes - although that's a real feat on its own. They made them feel different with distinct mechanics, instead of basically the same one class with different names for skills mixing them up to make the numbers add up the same way, which is damn hard to do.

[ixokai]

@zombiegenesis said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

@ixokai 5E has actually made me a fan of some classes that I wasn't a fan of before, namely the Monk, the Warlord(the Battlemaster archetype for the fighter), and...the Bard. There's really not a class I would not play in 5E. And there is a shocking amount of variety and versatility in every class. I played in a TT game where we were all clerics and we were all very different and the group was shockingly well balanced. I definitely suggest giving 5E a look.

Huh, really? Unarmed damage getting a nerf and flurry costing ki made me blink and shrug, I read through the SRD and it didn't seem the other stuff really made up for it. I'll perhaps have to go give it another look and maybe put D&D on my maybe-list.

What setting is your favorite D&D setting, or would someone mind a custom one?

[Seraphim73]

@arkandel said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

They did a hell of a job with this one, and I'm not even someone who likes systems in general

I think this may be the big difference in your opinion and mine of 5E. I didn't mind combat, it was, as you and others said, nicely streamlined. But where I had my problems was leveling up--I found it difficult to distinguish characters in the same class level-to-level. There weren't a ton of ways to individualize a character on a level-to-level basis. Most levels you just gained some hitpoints, got a little better at a technique that everyone else in your class (or half of them) had, or got a new technique that everyone in your class (or half of them) also got. I missed the Feats (and I know that you can pick up Feats instead of some of the other abilities) and skill points and customization that you do in earlier editions and in Pathfinder.

This may be an issue that only I have had, since @ZombieGenesis seems to have had the exact opposite experience, but I just found myself distinctly underwhelmed by leveling up.

[ixokai]

@ixokai said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

maybe put D&D on my maybe-list.

... or not. They don't have PDFs and thus the books are pricey. -.-

[bored]

@ixokai said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

Huh, really? Unarmed damage getting a nerf and flurry costing ki made me blink and shrug, I read through the SRD and it didn't seem the other stuff really made up for it. I'll perhaps have to go give it another look and maybe put D&D on my maybe-list.

Kind of off-topic, but comparing 5e to prior editions and calling total redesigns 'nerfs' is a little silly. The whole game is designed and balanced differently.

Extra attacks are a lot more limited in 5e, where only a level 20 pure fighter ever gets 3/turn (compared to say the 4 at 16 bab in 3.5/pathfinder) without additional feats & abilities. Monks get a bonus action attack by default with ability modifier on damage, which would cost a dual-wielder a feat. Flurry turns it into 2 attacks. So they're attacking as often as a level 5 martial dual wielder or a level 20 single wielder, and thus it's 'limited' use. That said, ki recovers on short rest so once you're past the lower levels you tend to get plenty of usage, and at mid-high you can (and do) spend several points every round and not really run out.

Also stunning fist?

[ixokai]

@bored said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

That said, ki recovers on short rest

Oh I missed that part. I thought it was a long rest, which seemed like it'd make low levels really painful.

[Jennkryst]

For some reason, it won't let me do this correctly on my phone. Tricksy.

@ixokai said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

@jennkryst said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

@ixokai [Place] with a proper HSpace-esque flight simulator. Spelljammer is at the top of my list, but others are potentially neat.

Man, I have no idea why anyone would want that.

1. SAAAAAAAAAACCCCCCCEEEE! It is awesome.
2. Because a simulator with Kerbal-level graphic would be excessive.
3. Minigame to give folks something to do if they are too tired to put in EFFORT to RP, but who re not too tired to log in and do other stuff.
4. Minigame to do between poses on the bridge.
5. My first MU ever was a Star Wars place that had nifty things, which was followed up by Serenity MU, and I am always in the throws of nostalgia.
6. I am weird.

I'm not saying it even be as hyper-complicated as HSpace itself was. But I am totes saying more complicated than the system on the D20 Star Wars places, and more complete than TSpace on Age of Alliances.

Re: D&D 5e - ... meh? I disagree with a lot of 5e, and still hold 4e to a higher/more logical place for MUSHdom. Mostly because of how powers are specific with what they do, and 'Spellcaster > ALL' got fixed. The only issue with 4e was the lack of proper Spelljamming.

Buuuuut... D&D and/or Shadowrun gripes could probably go to their own threads at this point.

[ZombieGenesis]

@Seraphim73 For me one of the great things about 5E is how easy it is to level up. There may be fewer options but that makes leveling up a breeze, quick and easy. And I personally did not feel like it it cost anything in terms of versatility or variance.

@ixokai The PDFs are out there...if you look. I don't want to post a pirate link but a simple google search will throw up a huge repository now-a-days. The good thing is they don't churn out the books like they use to. You get maybe 1 or 2 a year, which works GREAT for people like me who don't have the money to toss away on a ton of books a year.

I also think the system would translate fairly well to a MUX, which is something I've been slowly working on over the past year or so. Hoping to have something to test out very soon on that front.

[ixokai]

@jennkryst said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

Buuuuut... D&D and/or Shadowrun gripes could probably go to their own threads at this point.

Since I'm considering what to make, I consider them quite on topic.

[ixokai]

@zombiegenesis said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

@ixokai The PDFs are out there...if you look. I don't want to post a pirate link but a simple google search will throw up a huge repository now-a-days.

Oh I know I could get anything if I wanted, but I don't pirate anymore.

[Roz]

@ixokai said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

@zombiegenesis said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

@ixokai The PDFs are out there...if you look. I don't want to post a pirate link but a simple google search will throw up a huge repository now-a-days.

Oh I know I could get anything if I wanted, but I don't pirate anymore.

I guess DND Beyond might not give you actual PDFs, but it gives you access to the books digitally?

[Seraphim73]

@zombiegenesis said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

For me one of the great things about 5E is how easy it is to level up.

Yeah, just different play-styles. I want some fiddly bits to make it feel like my character's an individual, you and Arkandel prefer smooth leveling up (I think). No problems.

[ixokai]

@auspice said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

It's just so new that it would probably be best if you had a team working on coding it up, yeah.

Naw, I can handle the code myself fine. I'm not in a rush, but I am a professional developer and know how to plan and execute projects.

I'm also not sure it's a fit for Ares, knowing what I do about Ares. I'd almost point to Evennia over Ares. Esp. since in Evennia, you could design 'dungeon modules' for a...

Why do you say that? The reason I'm going with Ares is an excuse to learn Ruby, and also because out of the box its a far more complete mush-like environment then Evennia. Also since I'm already an expert in Python I don't really need to learn anything there (Except like, how Evennia itself works).

[Auspice]

@ixokai said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

@auspice said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

It's just so new that it would probably be best if you had a team working on coding it up, yeah.

Naw, I can handle the code myself fine. I'm not in a rush, but I am a professional developer and know how to plan and execute projects.

I'm also not sure it's a fit for Ares, knowing what I do about Ares. I'd almost point to Evennia over Ares. Esp. since in Evennia, you could design 'dungeon modules' for a...

Why do you say that? The reason I'm going with Ares is an excuse to learn Ruby, and also because out of the box its a far more complete mush-like environment then Evennia. Also since I'm already an expert in Python I don't really need to learn anything there (Except like, how Evennia itself works).

Well, FS3 is an Ares module, it's true, so stripping out FS3... It's possible it'd be doable. What I love about Ares is that it's an out-of-the-box MU*.

D&D is just such a big, complex beast. However, the more I think about it... It probably has a lot of database support natively, which is what I'd want if I was developing a D&D system for MU*. My biggest gripe with TT systems on MUSH/MUX is putting attributes on code objects. They get so messy.

But if you could put them in a SQL DB that the game calls? It'd be so much cleaner. And mulling... with the web portal, Ares has a lot of support for databases already. So it MIGHT be doable. I just don't know Ruby enough to say for sure, it's just more a gut instinct call, I guess?

I mean, if you got it working? I'd run a D&D 5e game in a heartbeat, probably.