What's missing in MUSHdom?

Three-Eyed Crow · Mar 20, 2018, 4:41 AM

@auspice said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

Well, FS3 is an Ares module, it's true, so stripping out FS3... It's possible it'd be doable. What I love about Ares is that it's an out-of-the-box MU*.

The impression I've gotten is that it's easily doable, you just need to have something to replace it with, and there's not a D&D or Harry Potter magic or whatever plug-in. Yet. My assumption is that somebody who knows Ruby could code something up in the same way someone who knows python could code something up in Evennia, but that still requires developers interested in it.

ixokai · Mar 20, 2018, 4:44 AM

@auspice said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

Well, FS3 is an Ares module, it's true, so stripping out FS3... It's possible it'd be doable. What I love about Ares is that it's an out-of-the-box MU*.

D&D is just such a big, complex beast. However, the more I think about it... It probably has a lot of database support natively, which is what I'd want if I was developing a D&D system for MU*. My biggest gripe with TT systems on MUSH/MUX is putting attributes on code objects. They get so messy.

But if you could put them in a SQL DB that the game calls? It'd be so much cleaner. And mulling... with the web portal, Ares has a lot of support for databases already. So it MIGHT be doable. I just don't know Ruby enough to say for sure, it's just more a gut instinct call, I guess?

Oh I'm certain its doable. Almost all Ares functionality is a plugin; though I wouldn't use a SQL database because I wouldn't want to introduce a second DB into ares. It uses redis w/ Ohm as its basic database model, so I'd store stuff that doesn't fit on a character model in redis.

D&D doesn't seem particularly complicated to me; its got nothing on Eclipse Phase or Shadowrun. Reading over classes with 5E, how so many have choices of 'paths' (circles, monestaries, etc), there'd probably have to be special code for each class for advancement instead of a quasi-generic class-feature-handout that I was planning with Pathfinder, but that's not bad.

faraday · Mar 20, 2018, 4:53 AM

@auspice said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

Well, FS3 is an Ares module, it's true, so stripping out FS3... It's possible it'd be doable. What I love about Ares is that it's an out-of-the-box MU*.

FS3 is a plugin like any other and designed to be optional. Disabling it involves a couple mouse clicks on the plugins configuration screen.

Ares could certainly handle a D&D system. It has a database (noSQL instead of SQL but the same basic idea.) There's no need to put all the static gear and skill tables and stuff into the database, though. Ares has config files for that. Easier to edit through the web portal admin screens and faster to load.

Auspice · Mar 20, 2018, 4:52 AM

@faraday said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

It has a database (noSQL instead of SQL but the same basic idea.)

Well, when I say SQL - those that Know Know what I mean. Some form of server-side database management vs the methodology of Penn, Tiny, etc. to store everything in attributes on an object, which is why I haaaaate coding on them.

Sparks · Mar 20, 2018, 5:42 PM

@auspice said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

D&D is just such a big, complex beast. However, the more I think about it... It probably has a lot of database support natively, which is what I'd want if I was developing a D&D system for MU*. My biggest gripe with TT systems on MUSH/MUX is putting attributes on code objects. They get so messy.

But if you could put them in a SQL DB that the game calls? It'd be so much cleaner. And mulling... with the web portal, Ares has a lot of support for databases already. So it MIGHT be doable. I just don't know Ruby enough to say for sure, it's just more a gut instinct call, I guess?

Ares is based atop a redis database, while Evennia is based atop Django's ORM backed by either SQLite, Postgres, or MySQL. Depending on how you wanted to implement things, either would work for what you're discussing.

Auspice · Mar 20, 2018, 5:46 PM

@sparks said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

@auspice said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

D&D is just such a big, complex beast. However, the more I think about it... It probably has a lot of database support natively, which is what I'd want if I was developing a D&D system for MU*. My biggest gripe with TT systems on MUSH/MUX is putting attributes on code objects. They get so messy.

But if you could put them in a SQL DB that the game calls? It'd be so much cleaner. And mulling... with the web portal, Ares has a lot of support for databases already. So it MIGHT be doable. I just don't know Ruby enough to say for sure, it's just more a gut instinct call, I guess?

Ares is based atop a redis database, while Evennia is based atop Django's ORM backed by either SQLite, Postgres, or MySQL. Depending on how you wanted to implement things, either would work for what you're discussing.

Oh, yeah. I know Evennia would def. work. Ares just felt, initially, a strange fit for me for D&D.

I like the idea of Evennia for D&D because some of its core structure is designed for building 'encounters.' And I like the idea of being able to build D&D and then Staff/players being able to design dungeon crawls so that players don't actively need DMs around for simple one-shot adventures, y'know?

How cool would that be? Having simple 'go kill the rats in the tavern basement' encounters that you and a party could do for some basic loot/RP without needing to wait for someone to schedule/run it for you... because it was already designed into the system.

Zz · Mar 20, 2018, 5:48 PM

@faraday I wish I had the code skills to write a fate plugin.

ixokai · Mar 20, 2018, 5:55 PM

@auspice said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

I like the idea of Evennia for D&D because some of its core structure is designed for building 'encounters.'

I really don't get where you're getting this from. I'm pretty familiar with Evennia's internals and don't get this at all.

Auspice · Mar 20, 2018, 6:04 PM

@ixokai said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

@auspice said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

I like the idea of Evennia for D&D because some of its core structure is designed for building 'encounters.'

I really don't get where you're getting this from. I'm pretty familiar with Evennia's internals and don't get this at all.

The tutorial 'world' for Evennia has a whole set of rooms that are a puzzle, a combat AI, etc...

So I know it's doable. If it's there in just the base tutorial world, it's got to be able to be scaled 'up' for something like D&D.

ixokai · Mar 20, 2018, 6:13 PM

@auspice said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

@ixokai said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

@auspice said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

I like the idea of Evennia for D&D because some of its core structure is designed for building 'encounters.'

I really don't get where you're getting this from. I'm pretty familiar with Evennia's internals and don't get this at all.

The tutorial 'world' for Evennia has a whole set of rooms that are a puzzle, a combat AI, etc...

So I know it's doable. If it's there in just the base tutorial world, it's got to be able to be scaled 'up' for something like D&D.

There's nothing in that tutorial that Ares can't do, readily.

Coin · Mar 20, 2018, 6:15 PM

I don't know how much appealing to your ego and pride will work, but if you want a REAL CHALLENGE , code some Exalted 3rd Edition.

Just sayin'.

You know.

Thenomain · Mar 20, 2018, 6:41 PM

@ixokai said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

What's missing in our games?

A sense of holding players and staff responsible for their actions.

What would you play if only it were there?

Oh. OH! Oh, er, Fallout.

edit: I agree with @faraday that a plugin for Fate Core would be nice.

Jennkryst · Mar 20, 2018, 6:43 PM

@coin https://exaltedmush.gamepedia.com/Exalted_MUSH:_Tales_of_a_Dreaming_Sea_Wiki

Three-Eyed Crow · Mar 20, 2018, 6:46 PM

@zz
Janus (coder friend of ours) could probably make one.

Like, Evennia and Ares have the potential, I feel like, to have a ton of plug-and-play features in a few years, if developers take an interest in them.

The Sands · Mar 20, 2018, 6:49 PM

@sparks said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

Ares is based atop a redis database, while Evennia is based atop Django's ORM backed by either SQLite, Postgres, or MySQL. Depending on how you wanted to implement things, either would work for what you're discussing.

Because Evennia uses Python you are also able to access MySQL directly through SQL calls using MySQLdb (I'm currently doing this with the Eclipse Phase setup I'm working on).

I assume you can probably access the databases (SQLite, Postgres) through Python and probably even access new databases such as Elasticsearch (if you can think of a good reason to do that) but I have not tried that myself to be certain.

I should note that I am not saying you can't do this in Ares. I don't know Ares well enough to say it won't work. I'm simply saying that with Evennia you aren't constrained to using Django's ORM backend for complex data manipulation*.

*(I believe that you do have a minor constraint in that you must use Djagno's ORM backend for 'core' things such as storing player accounts, basic objects, rooms, etc.)

Mr.Johnson · Mar 20, 2018, 7:07 PM

@thenomain Oh man oh man do we ever NEED a good fallout game. I would play that to the ends of the earth.

Thenomain · Mar 20, 2018, 7:12 PM

@mr-johnson

+1 for pun.

faraday · Mar 20, 2018, 7:16 PM

@the-sands said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

I should note that I am not saying you can't do this in Ares.

You can but you shouldn’t need to. Redis is a NoSQL database so its data model is more simplistic to begin with.

@zz - I’m probably going to do a simple fate plugin.

Zz · Mar 20, 2018, 7:42 PM

@faraday You are my favooorite. As if there was doubt. I love that system for being so easy with quick pick up and play.

The Sands · Mar 20, 2018, 7:51 PM

@faraday said in What's missing in MUSHdom?:

You can but you shouldn’t need to. Redis is a NoSQL database so its data model is more simplistic to begin with.

Unless you're doing something that requires a data model more complicated than Redis is supporting.