@thenomain said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
@demiurge said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
If it's too offensive for Trump to say, then I'm likely going to ban it on obnoxiousness grounds.
Troll will always out itself.
Please don't call me a troll. And please don't call me "it."
@kanye-qwest said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
@thenomain said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
@demiurge said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
If it's too offensive for Trump to say, then I'm likely going to ban it on obnoxiousness grounds.
Troll will always out itself.
Yeah, that kind of cements it.
I would like to bounce off this a bit: I know we have a few conservatives on this board who feel overwhelmed by the angry socially liberal view of many of the posters here. We know that this is not you. It doesn't take a sociology degree to see where "I disagree" becomes poisonous, and I honestly find hate from either side to be antisocial and part of the problem.
And that's it. The hate. Framing anyone else's "I disagree" into hate is just as much of a problem, and anyone being afraid to say what's on our mind because that framing (mostly) respectful disagreement as hate-speech is our new normal is the problem.
This is an apolitical statement, unless trying to find cohesion within a community is political.
--
@demiurge said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
@thenomain said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
@demiurge said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
If it's too offensive for Trump to say, then I'm likely going to ban it on obnoxiousness grounds.
Troll will always out itself.
Please don't call me a troll. And please don't call me "it."
After your recent posts, I find it difficult to believe that this is a sincere request.
“If you wish to make an apple pie from scratch, you must first invent the universe.”
― Carl Sagan, Cosmos
@thenomain said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
@kanye-qwest said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
@thenomain said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
@demiurge said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
If it's too offensive for Trump to say, then I'm likely going to ban it on obnoxiousness grounds.
Troll will always out itself.
Yeah, that kind of cements it.
I would like to bounce off this a bit: I know we have a few conservatives on this board who feel overwhelmed by the angry socially liberal view of many of the posters here. We know that this is not you. It doesn't take a sociology degree to see where "I disagree" becomes poisonous, and I honestly find hate from either side to be antisocial and part of the problem.
And that's it. The hate. Framing anyone else's "I disagree" into hate is just as much of a problem, and anyone being afraid to say what's on our mind because that framing (mostly) respectful disagreement as hate-speech is our new normal is the problem.
This is an apolitical statement, unless trying to find cohesion within a community is political.
--
@demiurge said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
@thenomain said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
@demiurge said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
If it's too offensive for Trump to say, then I'm likely going to ban it on obnoxiousness grounds.
Troll will always out itself.
Please don't call me a troll. And please don't call me "it."
After your recent posts, I find it difficult to believe that this is a sincere request.
Calling people trolls and "it" is decidedly dehumanizing, and I sincerely do not appreciate it.
@demiurge said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
@thenomain said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
@demiurge said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
If it's too offensive for Trump to say, then I'm likely going to ban it on obnoxiousness grounds.
Troll will always out itself.
Please don't call me a troll. And please don't call me "it."
After your recent posts, I find it difficult to believe that this is a sincere request.
Calling people trolls and "it" is decidedly dehumanizing, and I sincerely do not appreciate it.
@demiurge said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
Pro-LGBT space marines are, dare I say it, a retarded idea.
You have to live up to the persona you build. The only way out of it is not be the person you don't want people to see. If you don't care, then put me on ignore and so be it, or just don't reply. I'm just one person. People who've ignored my disagreeing with them are better for it.
@demiurge said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
Yes. And a lot of them are very upsetting to a lot of people. But I've decided I'm not going to forbid the views of large segments of the U.S. population from having an IC presence in my game. I'm sorry.
I'm not telling you to forbid anything, nor am I judging you for allowing IC bigotry. I once ran a Western game that allowed historical attitudes and even subjected my own PC to heaping doses of historically-appropriate sexism. So really, I get it. All some of us are saying is, to quote Wizz:
@wizz said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
For the love of god man, if you don't want a meltdown, then put up a disclaimer.
Because seriously - there are a lot of MUSHers who don't want to deal with that kind of crap in their pretendy-fun-times.
You can yell all you want about how "it's just IC" but that's fooling yourself.
When you're a woman or African American or LGBTQ (or any other marginalized group) in real life and get subjected to hatred and discrimination all day long, the very last thing that a lot of those people want to do is have their avatars (who, quite often, fall into the same demographic as themselves) subjected to the same crap in their interactive fiction. So if you're going to require them to do so or else excuse themselves from the game, then that is the sort of policy that needs to be spelled out up front.
Otherwise I absolutely guarantee you're going to end up with serious drama sooner rather than later.
Okay. So. I don't think that anyone is pushing back against the idea that you can't play a racist or a bigot or any other kind of character with some kind of prejudice. You see it plenty on WoD games because real world prejudices still exist. It happens. Hell, I've played a characters like that in the past.
And there's a difference between random players not liking each other and eventually making snide comments and snipes at each other to jumping right away to the idea that anyone is saying that everyone must be PC so we don't trigger the snowflakes. From what I've read, I haven't seen that.
You have two extremes here going on. Neither of which anyone was advocating for. Allowing characters to act like obstinate dicks IC? Whatever. Happens on plenty of games and it's never been an issue. From what I read, and maybe I'm wrong, it's when there's no OOC structure to discipline those players that take that freedom too far. Because there should be limits. There have to be limits.
The whole idea of 'everything is allowed' is ideal in theory. But humans are pieces of shit who will take every mile they can for every inch their allowed.
No, no game should be PC-world where everything is nice and any bad language is treated with draconian authoritarianism. But no oversight with nothing being seen as negative is just as bad.
There needs to be a middle ground, and this litmus test to say 'if it's worse than Trump' I'm not sure is the best measure.
@faraday said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
I'm not telling you to forbid anything, nor am I judging you for allowing IC bigotry.
bigoted attitudes ICly
To reiterate: OOC harassment will not, under any circumstances, be tolerated.
@faraday said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
Because seriously - there are a lot of MUSHers who don't want to deal with that kind of crap in their pretendy-fun-times.
You can yell all you want about how "it's just IC" but that's fooling yourself.
When you're a woman or African American or LGBTQ (or any other marginalized group) in real life and get subjected to hatred and discrimination all day long, the very last thing that a lot of those people want to do is have their avatars (who, quite often, fall into the same demographic as themselves) subjected to the same crap in their interactive fiction. So if you're going to require them to do so or else excuse themselves from the game, then that is the sort of policy that needs to be spelled out up front.
Otherwise I absolutely guarantee you're going to end up with serious drama sooner rather than later.
And I fully appreciate your concern. But I'm reluctant to impose ideological restrictions, in particular on IC content. As said before, I'm sorry if that amounts to your disinterest or anybody else's disinterest.
@demiurge said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
And I fully appreciate your concern. But I'm reluctant to impose ideological restrictions, in particular on IC content. As said before, I'm sorry if that amounts to your disinterest or anybody else's disinterest.
Did you see the part where I wasn’t telling you to change your policy, but merely to add a note making that policy clear in your policy file?
@faraday said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
@demiurge said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
And I fully appreciate your concern. But I'm reluctant to impose ideological restrictions, in particular on IC content. As said before, I'm sorry if that amounts to your disinterest or anybody else's disinterest.
Did you see the part where I wasn’t telling you to change your policy, but merely to add a note making that policy clear in your policy file?
Yes, but that is in the TOS as well:
By going farther, you agree that anything you are exposed to here is
your own responsibility. We are not here to babysit you, so that
aforementioned laissez faire culture might mean you read something that
offends you. It might even offend us. We generally don't regard this
as a very good reason to ban or consequence people.
So I figured, since this has been addressed, that you were stressing this for some other reason. Like wanting me to change the policy.
@demiurge No, I was just saying that I don’t think that policy conveys your intent and you may want to reword it to be more explicit. Or don’t. It’s your game and I was never going to play on it either way because it’s not my jam. I’m just trying to save you some headaches down the road. If you don’t like the suggestion, ignore it.
@faraday said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
@demiurge No, I was just saying that I don’t think that policy conveys your intent and you may want to reword it to be more explicit. Or don’t. It’s your game and I was never going to play on it either way because it’s not my jam. I’m just trying to save you some headaches down the road. If you don’t like the suggestion, ignore it.
That's fair. I'm a little disappointed that the whole point of this thread effectively got captured by a conversation about IC/OOC speech codes. Feels bad, man.
@demiurge You can ask the mods to move that stuff to a separate thread.
(We can, just won't happen for a few hours prob. Unless @Ganymede or @Arkandel have a chunk of free time before I do. Picking out posts is tedious and I am kind of buried under work for the next 3 hours+)
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
@auspice said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
(We can, just won't happen for a few hours prob. Unless @Ganymede or @Arkandel have a chunk of free time before I do. Picking out posts is tedious and I am kind of buried under work for the next 3 hours+)
I sent Arkandel a message but if it's a humongous pain in your ass, don't bother. Since this game is in active development, my intention is to use this thread for the following purposes:
EDIT: So if reaming me out for going against the grain is commonplace here, I'll cop that on the nose.
@demiurge said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
@auspice said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
(We can, just won't happen for a few hours prob. Unless @Ganymede or @Arkandel have a chunk of free time before I do. Picking out posts is tedious and I am kind of buried under work for the next 3 hours+)
I sent Arkandel a message but if it's a humongous pain in your ass, don't bother. Since this game is in active development, my intention is to use this thread for the following purposes:
- changelog updates, and
- discussion on how the game ought to be run (I realize I turned a lot of people off by having speech codes which are too lax)
So what you may want to consider is:
These could perhaps be combined into one aspect. The split point could dovetail into the Game Dev discussion post as a creation point.
Saying the quiet parts out loud since 1996.
@auspice @Demiurge - I would humbly suggest this split point: http://musoapbox.net/topic/2397/dreamwalk-mush/52?page=3#
I think the “I’m conflicted” bit invited more game dev-y discussion (intentionally or not) and the subject matter hit a lot of peopes’ hot button.
@demiurge said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
EDIT: So if reaming me out for going against the grain is commonplace here, I'll cop that on the nose.
Really? 'Going against the grain' is what you got out of this?
@demiurge said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
I'm a little disappointed that the whole point of this thread effectively got captured by a conversation about IC/OOC speech codes. Feels bad, man.
You fell into the MSB vortex, from whence no thread returns.
@TNP That is exactly what he should get out of this.
Livestream of me updating Dreamwalk MUSH: https://www.twitch.tv/thestranjer
@thenomain said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
@demiurge said in Dreamwalk MUSH:
If it's too offensive for Trump to say, then I'm likely going to ban it on obnoxiousness grounds.
Troll will always out itself.
What does it even mean? The only things I can think of that might even be on that small list are slurs.
Y'all finished or y'all done? I ain't go no more talkin'.
@demiurge No, I was just saying that I don’t think that policy conveys your intent and you may want to reword it to be more explicit. Or don’t. It’s your game and I was never going to play on it either way because it’s not my jam. I’m just trying to save you some headaches down the road. If you don’t like the suggestion, ignore it.
