If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP

[Killer Klown]

I don't know. Maybe it's just me, but it seems like the idea of multi-sphere games tend to do more harm than good when it comes to activity. Some of the most successful or active games I can think of over the last twenty years or so focused on one sphere <not counting Mortal or Mortal+>. I know people want to play all the things, but that puts a pretty huge burden on staff - they need to know the rules, have the code in place, and have storytellers available for however many spheres are being supported. In the event of cross-sphere stories, you need to have both a staffer that knows all the spheres involved running the scene, and have the scene set up in such a way where one sphere won't tromp all over what would be a decent challenge for others.
And that's assuming you get the spheres willing, and have a reason, to interact in the first place. A multisphere game where every one of the spheres is only involved in their own thing isn't a multisphere game, it's multiple games running on the same site.
I guess, ideally, what I would prefer seeing is a game that focuses on one sphere and builds a solid plot and foundation; then, if the interest and support is there, branch out to another sphere. Staffers as a whole are fewer and further between, and it seems that straight up storytelling staffers are even rarer. That's a finite resource, and trying to spread it out over what basically amounts to multiple games at the same time only seems to result in burnout, high turnover, and no one getting the amount of attention they need.

[Ghost]

@Killer-Klown

12 players across 6 different spheres can potentially make for an exciting 2 players per sphere.

sidebar: I just cooked some math in this thread.

[Derp]

@Thenomain said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

wrongfun

I hate this word. It feels like such a cheap copout on a way to get around something obvious: "wrongfun" is a real thing.

Wrong place. Wrong time. Wrong setting. Wrong theme. Wrong feel. Wrong universe. Wrong audience. Wrong style.

Yes, there are plenty of times when the kind of fun you're looking for is wrong for whatever of those above categories, and others, it is conflicting with. But bring that up and people shout down at other people about "how dare you wrongfun me!"

Well, conversely, how dare you expect everyone else to conform to what you want when what you want doesn't conform to the standards?

Yes, there is such a thing as wrongfun, and I think that we'd be a hell of a lot better off if we used it more, especially when it's not 'minor infraction that can be chalked up to quirkiness' and more 'no, you are seriously going way into the weeds with this'.

I've had a couple of players recently that I really wanted to punch in their virtual teeth because they don't seem to get how disruptive their styles are to what everyone else, including the staff, is expecting, but because we're so very anti-wrongfun everyone is afraid to approach them and say 'dude, take a breath and read the room'.

So I get that it's sometimes not staff's game either, per se, in deciding what the culture is, but sometimes? You just gotta have those hard talks, too.

[Ghost]

@Derp The inherent argument in the word "wrongfun" is that someone is being shamed.

People tend to use wrongfun as a way of saying "this person is going over the line and attacking me for liking something that they don't, which is none of their business, and thus something cruel is being done to me."

Objectively, people should be able to discuss why they dislike something or why it isn't permitted. They should be able to do so with explanations and logic. Wrongfun tends to get called when either the complainer is making their complaint in "Asshole Tone" (making it feel like an attack), or because the person complained against wants to rush to get ahead of the narrative and claim the dislike of what they're doing is a bias-based attack.

Fun stuff.

Anyway...

I think wrongfun is a bullshit term, as well.

[Thenomain]

@Ghost

That's if each sphere is its own game.

The good multi-sphere games (Haunted Memories for a time, Dark Metal if you have a sense of irony, Aether forever, probably every Babylon 5 game since I'm on a Bab5 kick) have the spheres mixing it up. Hell, we even managed it on TwoMoons, where each tribe was in a distinct and incredibly distant part of the game map. Some of them were antagonist clans, too.

The idea that a "sphere" is an "independent game" is one that can probably get out of WoD players' vocabularies.

That is: Totally Disagree (not looking for GIF).

[Arkandel]

@Derp said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

I hate this word. It feels like such a cheap copout on a way to get around something obvious: "wrongfun" is a real thing.

Yes, there is such a thing as wrongfun, and I think that we'd be a hell of a lot better off if we used it more, especially when it's not 'minor infraction that can be chalked up to quirkiness' and more 'no, you are seriously going way into the weeds with this'.

Wrongfun may be used incorrectly but there's nothing wrong with the word itself.

We're gaming. Gaming isn't there to serve an agenda; it's to have fun. That's the only relevant standard is that everyone is entertained.

It's like thumbing your nose because people are watching soap operas instead of Breaking Bad. I mean sure, there's no denying BB is a masterpiece - but so what? The value of your entertainment - what you watch (or play) - doesn't determine your own worth in any real way.

[Derp]

@Thenomain said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

The idea that a "sphere" is an "independent game" is one that can probably get out of WoD players' vocabularies.

This works if all of your staff are onboard, and they all know that they're accountable to each other. The moment that a staffer tries to treat any sphere as its own little fiefdom without accountability to any of the other staffers, that's when it becomes a minigame.

Yes, you can have one staffer have almost dictatorial control over things. Honestly, that makes it very efficient. But also ensure that there is someone who is willing to step up and go 'woah, what are you doing? Explain yourself. How does this help? Why did you ignore how this effects everyone else?'

So partially agree: You need a mix. But you also need creative control sometimes. Checks and balances.

[Thenomain]

@Arkandel said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

Wrongfun may be used incorrectly but there's nothing wrong with the word itself.

Like there's nothing wrong with the swastika when used for its original purpose.

(Oh yeah, I went there.)

--

@Derp said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

This works if all of your staff are onboard

Are you saying that a cultural thing works if the culture is for it? Because...I didn't think that needed to be said, but I guess it needs to be said:

Any rule, idea, law, news file, or expectation needs to be supported and enforced by staff.

Or as I keep repeating: All behavior on a game stems from staff.

[Derp]

@Arkandel said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

It's like thumbing your nose because people are watching soap operas instead of Breaking Bad. I mean sure, there's no denying BB is a masterpiece - but so what? The value of your entertainment - what you watch (or play) - doesn't determine your own worth in any real way.

No, it doesn't. But this is not an apt metaphor. The people enoying Breaking Bad and the people enjoying Soap Operas are watching fundamentally different things that are handled in a completely different style, and we don't expect those two things to mix, ever, because they're contained neatly within their little containers (shows).

Same with games. You don't mix Soap Operas and Breaking Bad in the same space, because it doesn't work. There are spaces for both of those things, but trying to include them both is a recipe for trouble, and we should be able to say 'we respect that you like this, but we don't want it here'.

The relevant standard isn't that everyone is entertained. It's that the people wanting to be entertained in the same way can do so. Others who want a different style of entertainment can find it elsewhere.

This is the entire premise of genres, and why everyone thinks slash/fanfic can be cute but nobody takes it very seriously.

Sometimes, one person doesn't fit. They don't even have to be an asshole. It's just that their expectations are different. That's fine. But they still don't fit. And that's an issue.

So while I don't think that it's shaming, I do think that telling someone that what they want isn't what the game wants (and thus isn't gonna happen there) is perfectly reasonable.

[Ghost]

@Thenomain said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@Arkandel said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

Wrongfun may be used incorrectly but there's nothing wrong with the word itself.

Like there's nothing wrong with the swastika when used for its original purpose.
(Oh yeah, I went there.)

RED ALERT. RED ALERT. NOW HEAR THIS.

THENOMAIN HAS INITIATED DAEDELUS PROTOCOL. REPEAT: THENOMAIN HAS INITIATED DAEDELUS PROTOCOL.

lol.

[Sunny]

@Derp

There is a difference between 'being disruptive' and 'doing something I don't like'. Wrongfun revolves around the latter; rulebreaking and enforcement is where the former comes in. YOU are using the word incorrectly for rulebreaking / being disruptive / being a problem, and that's not what it means. Just because 'wrong' and 'fun' are used doesn't mean that it applies to every instance of someone's fun being wrong. It's not 'wrongfun' to harass somebody -- it's harassing somebody. And so on.

[Sunny]

@Derp said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

So while I don't think that it's shaming, I do think that telling someone that what they want isn't what the game wants (and thus isn't gonna happen there) is perfectly reasonable.

Nobody anywhere here is disagreeing with this.

[Auspice]

Sorry guys thread is over.
We done got Godwined

[Ghost]

@Sunny said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

It's not 'wrongfun' to harass somebody -- it's harassing somebody.

Unless your fun consists of harassing others.

Then it's both harassment and wrongfun.

[Thenomain]

@Ghost said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@Sunny said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

It's not 'wrongfun' to harass somebody -- it's harassing somebody.

Unless your fun consists of harassing others.

Then it's both harassment and wrongfun.

Stop kinkshaming.

[Ghost]

@Thenomain said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@Ghost said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

@Sunny said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

It's not 'wrongfun' to harass somebody -- it's harassing somebody.

Unless your fun consists of harassing others.

Then it's both harassment and wrongfun.

Stop kinkshaming.

Kink shaming is my kink!

(sidebar: I got it right this time.)
(sidebar2: RIP Vines)

[Sparks]

@Derp said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

So I get that it's sometimes not staff's game either, per se, in deciding what the culture is[...]

Whoa, hang on.

If the intent of this is to say that a game's culture will often be sort of what arises organically from the players who invest the most in the game, and sometimes that's different than staff expected? Yes, that's true. (Although I do think staff can curate the culture they want.)

However. I don't think that means it isn't still staff's game to decide what the culture should be.

We've had conversations on MSB before about how unhealthy it can be when a player sticks around in a game culture they don't like or enjoy; I feel like it's even more unhealthy when it's the staff who are sticking around in a game culture they don't like. This is a recipe for staff who either realize it's unhealthy and walk away, or—out of a sense of obligation—stick around and are miserable, which is generally a recipe for miserable and/or discontent players as well.

Staff who are miserable don't usually put their creative energy fully into the plots they run, or as much energy into any part of staffing. Staff who are miserable stop logging in regularly, stop handling jobs/requests, and so on. Staff who are miserable start viewing the game as a chore, an obligation, rather than a place where they can enjoy providing story.

So, from a practical standpoint, no, staff may not get to just dictate the game's culture to the gestalt player personality. But if that game culture deviates too much from staff's expectations/preferences, I think regardless of what that resulting culture actually is you just end up with an agonizing descent into game death.

And then it's nobody's game.

[faraday]

@Sparks said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

And then it's nobody's game.

Very much agreed. Staff can't really dictate culture, per se, but they can and should drive the culture. This is done through the plots they run, the code they write, the types of characters they approve (or don't), the things they reward (and how), and the behavior they tolerate (or stamp down).

[mietze]

I agree with @sparks and @faraday but man have I seen some spectacular screaming-ass shitfits, harassment, and temper tantrums vomiting everywhere by players at even a game /closing/. How DARE that staffer CLOSE that game rather than HAND IT OVER, they are evil because that game belonged to US not THEM! To a very unhealthy level. Like the people who act like an author owes them more books, or whatever.

Are they outliers, yes. But I do think there is a not insignificant number of people who may not act like a total asshole, but do indeed believe that a game is owned by the players who play on it just as much if not more than the people who run it. I think then a game's population reaches a certain level of expectation of that is ironically when it tends to go way out of control, because people no longer give a shit about any kind of vision but their individual one, and that gets real chaotic real fast.

[Tinuviel]

@mietze said in If you work hard, son, maybe someday you'll RP:

I think then a game's population reaches a certain level of expectation of that is ironically when it tends to go way out of control, because people no longer give a shit about any kind of vision but their individual one, and that gets real chaotic real fast.

I think there is a little cause and effect in here. Games grow larger, often but not always, because there is a very loose hold over the 'vision' by staff, thus there is more freedom to play what and how one wants to play. So more people play. So their vision becomes the driving force of their part of the game, thus there is more freedom, so more people play... it turns into a spiral of doom all from one particular design decision.