Things I've Learned Running Horror Mu

[surreality]

@Botulism <sniffles>

[bored]

[EDITED SUPER POLITE VERSION]

@Arkandel said in Things I've Learned Running Horror Mu:

But I think what you may be missing is that what's fun for you isn't a universal goal across the board. For instance many players like the idea of a persistant character they can sink time into for long periods of time, or MU* where that can support power imbalances, or where the theme is set to something specific they can learn and sink their teeth in rather than have it periodically revolve.

This is an extremely condescending and unnecessary stance to voice.

No one is missing this. Its the way that things have always been done and to the degree that the hobby continues to exist, it will be (for the large majority) the way things always will be done. Arguing on behalf of the absolute status quo seems one of the least necessary arguments one could possibly waste time making. 'I don't know if you realize, but some people enjoy (or at least tolerate) things the way they are!'

No one in this thread is suggesting that the 'old ways' be banned, just observing that doing the same thing leads to predictable results and that doing something new... can actually work. Also, you're making a serious logical error in assuming that 'because lots of people are continuing to enjoy x' it means they wouldn't enjoy something different. In large part, people have no option or opportunity to ever try something new or different. If they do not have the resources / time to create a game, even if they aren't satisfied, they have no option but to play what's there to play or not play at all. In some genres, they have barely any choice of games at all.

Seriously, all kudos to @botulism and again, anyone who is interested in progressing things in this hobby should seriously look to this example. Note, that doesn't mean 'Make a HorrorMU clone.' Indeed if 'go make a GOMO' is anyone's take away from this, they've seriously missed the point. You absolutely need one persistent character? Ok! Go change some other norms. There's plenty of room for experimentation, here. And engaging in it won't hurt the precious way its always been one iota.

[Ghost]

@bored said in Things I've Learned Running Horror Mu:

Amazing. This is such condescending bullshit from supposed Mr. Community Positivity.

Oh. Hey. Is that a personal attack on a Mildly Constructive board thread?

I'm totally not comfortable with personal attacks on the Midly Constructive board, which states in its rules of engagement:

You can call out an idea for being stupid, but not the person who came up with it. Do not make this personal.

Would be totally awks if you were attacking the forum owner/moderator with a personal attack on a board where it explicitly states not to do that.

[bored]

@Ghost Oh gosh! It'd sure be terrible if he noticed the post I tagged him in! He definitely needs your help! Good thing you've come to the rescue!

Realistically, if he wants me to edit out that line, fine, but the sentiment stands. His post is a pure Whataboutism-style derail, which I think is fairly nonconstructive (not in the rules breaking sense, but in the pointless, derailing argument sense) in a thread otherwise celebrating new ideas.

[Ghost]

@bored I found his post to be constructive and a sharing of his own perspective in a peaceful, non-combative way. Agree with him or not, he has a right to post his opinions on the Mildly Constructive board without being personally attacked for it.

I would appreciate it if you would tone down the rudeness as to not pollute what has been a fairly congratulative celebration of HorrorMu and the lessons learned with negativity. I'm sure the OP would appreciate it, too.

[bored]

@Ghost If you think making your cheeky 'you did a bad thing' post instead of just hitting the report button like an adult is you contributing to the positive environment, I don't know what to tell you.

[Ghost]

@bored Well, one attempts diplomacy. I'll hit the flag button, though. Good day, sir.

[Arkandel]

@bored said in Things I've Learned Running Horror Mu:

Realistically, if he wants me to edit out that line, fine, but the sentiment stands.

I'm way more tolerant about personal attacks on me, mostly because I don't take them well... personally. But if you thought I was attacking @Botulism I don't know what to tell you other than that it was certainly not my intention.

[surreality]

Really... I found Ark's post a bit out of place, too, particularly since the initial post makes it clear that it isn't for everyone in no uncertain terms. Going on about this as though it wasn't addressed from the jump due to things that are in no way universal wants was more than a little off-putting. My brain went 'he probably skimmed/read too fast and missed that bit', so I stuck with the relevant facts. Without that 'he probably missed that bit' mental loop in place (which is often there for everything)... uh, yeah, it does come across as a bit condescending and short-sighted. I mean, the things cited are not things that everyone wants, either, so their absence is not going to be a universal negative. Plenty of us find them to be major positives.

The game has now been around for almost a year. Just to address one of the points raised in the 'but what about' post, look at the difference between a player who joins the average permanent XP-gaining game a year from when it started compared to the active player who joined on day one. Odds are often good they won't be able to be in the same scenes and events due to the power disparity between the two. This is not an issue on HM at all, and it never will be. To some folks, this may be the most terrible thing ever, but to me, it's pure gold. It means that anyone interested can hop right into play/events/anything/everything without level-based concerns. It means everyone needs everyone else much more. It means new players or old players are not 'locked out' of things on the game over stat/level-based fairness concerns. It means plots and stories can be designed without a never-ending worry about how to handle sheet-based major power disparities, and can focus on telling an awesome and engaging story without ever once having to worry about that vast catalogue of issues.

This is non-trivial. The impact is notable. Inclusion increases because people don't have to worry about whether or not the new person is going to get turned into a greasy smear due to 'just having fresh out of CG stats'; they can be invited along without impediment. (And if and when anyone does get turned into a greasy smear, they live on in the metastory and the next story to fight another day and continue forward.) This also contributes to giving more people opportunity to shine that is otherwise often dominated by the very, very active, or high-powered dinos who showed up on day one (and maybe haven't done much of anything since but gain passive XP for existing until there's a spotlight to dive on like a shark catching a whiff of chum).

[Derp]

I've tried joining this game twice now. Both times, I mainly failed. The first one, the character I made just didn't click. The second time, right now, I got a new job that (surprise!) takes up way, way more of my day than my last one, but also pays much better, soooo. This just doesn't seem to ever be in the cards for me, sadly. Every time I start and try to commit something kicks me in the teeth.

It seems like a fun game. Plenty of people I know have fun there. It has interesting stories, and the people seem chill.

Pros that I saw in my short time:

Cool people. Relatively inclusive story. Active playerbase.

Cons:

The learning curve is a real thing, and the wiki is out of date on some things. Especially on things where it says 'don't worry about this, TD will do this for you', when it turns out that's maybe not so much the actual case.

Also, in this latest story, it seems like there was a general expectation that people knew what to do, and how to do it, which -- as a relatively new player I found kind of offputting. It's cool that everyone is on the same level xp-wise, but some of us are still trying to learn, and when you have oldbies slinging stuff left and right and able to do all kinds of fun shit while you're still trying to figure out how the dice work, it doesn't make it feel substantially different from an xp game, even if everyone is technically equal.

I think that was the biggest drawback for me. I had people there who were willing to teach, but the tutorializing should probably start early in the stories. Throw some easy pitches so that the newbies can figure out what they're doing before the system masters just roll everything they've got at everything in the scene. It was really demoralizing realizing that I had no idea what to do while everyone around me was just jumping on top of things seamlessly.

Overall, 4/5. Information could be updated and the system could be a little smoother to transition into, but not bad.

[surreality]

@Derp The wiki is getting a 2.0 treatment... at some point. The stuff you're describing is definitely an issue, and it's something very much in mind going forward. Not a ton of help right now, but ideally it's something that will be improving in the foreseeable future.

[Ghost]

I think altogether the people from HorrorMu should be proud. It's always great when a new approach pays off. Lessons learned is a practice I'm all about, and like any new invention you only know if it works by reviewing the test results.

I think mushing needs new ideas. Not that every game is same old same old (that's not what I'm saying), but the more new concepts get added in like new systems, web-based auto logging, web connectivity, new clients, and (imo most important) new attempts at ways to play, the better off I think the hobby will be.

Really, MU started on old UNIX BBS systems expanded for game rules. The base technology is antiquated, but that doesnt mean that it has to stay that way. Some of the base systems and UNIX-based codebases are so old that the dust has grown dust, but I like that I'm seeing innovation. Like any hobby, it needs to adapt to the changing times either or a play style or technological level.

Really, it's hard to remember that systems like these used to be accessed in the early 90s through dial-up POTS connection limited to 2-6 users at a time. BBS were the TOR of the day, and it's cool to see that right now it's become a mostly license-free RP frontier.

Done waxing poetic. Gotta be up at 3am.

[crayon]

HorrorMU* brought me out of the overcrowded old folks' home for dissatisfied text-based roleplayers who have retired from the life and given up on the hope of finding a community that is, or at least strives to be, what they were looking for.

Prior a lengthy stretch of time wherein I'd seldom manage to stomach a game for more than a month, most of my experience had been with the MUD side of things: RPIs and RPEs, and what-have-you. Some of that time was spent on Haven, which whetted my appetite for a horror roleplay experience but rarely satiated; my, and other players', experiences there stirred an awful lot of debate on the difficulties of cultivating a horror experience in a persistent text-based game, on prospective approaches, work-arounds, and solutions to those difficulties, and on a multitude of other issues, some specific to Haven and others nearly universal throughout the larger community.

The initial hook that brought me out of this slump and back out to write was taking a look at the game's wikipedia and seeing how @Botulism had found solutions to so many of the stumbling blocks I'd run into in my experiences with past games. At a glance, I could tell that the game was designed to be the sort of experience I was looking for, and I've been really glad to get involved and take part.

Rotating stories set with a persistent backdrop in the form of the Facility and its Archetypes enables the game to really embrace the horror theme and allow for players to be more free with their actions and worry less about the risk of death without entirely sacrificing the sense of extensive and permanent character development. Moreover, it helps keep the playerbase churning and reengaging through new incarnations of their characters, which remedies the near universal problem of players forming into tight-knit and often exclusive groups which can be impenetrable to newer players. I'm not going to say it completely removes this tendency, but it's certainly impactful in offering substantial mitigation.

The lack of typical progression elements removes much of the "gamist" feel from HorrorMU and allows its community to focus more on roleplaying and story, which is a welcome relief for somebody coming from the more heavily gamist-leaning RP MUD communities where the game often starts to come at the expense of roleplay and story.

This sort of experimentation, at least for me, has certainly paid off and resulted in what I feel to be a fantastic game and a fantastic community. There's certainly still room for growth, though, and I look forward to seeing how HorrorMU evolves going forward. While the game finds solutions to a lot of the issues that have plagued many players' -- or at least my -- experiences, a few things do come to mind besides minor tweaks to the fairly simple gameplay mechanics and updates and streamlining to make things more intuitive for newer players.

At times the story is so reliant on staff storytelling that I feel guilty, and which sometimes results in a dichotomy between overcrowded and highly-impactful scenes and less-crowded low-impact social scenes and infodumps, with little in-between. This might be something that could be solved as a community, by encouraging players to run small- to medium-sized, low- to medium- impact scenes using the gameplay mechanics, which could also help with aiding newer players to get a feel for things and start getting involved before diving into a larger event; they'd just have to be careful to keep things in-theme and avoid stepping on the toes of the larger story.

My experience with HorrorMU has been fantastic, and it's the most inclusive and upbeat -- astonishing when you consider how much time our characters spend in soul-destroying misery or terror and our players spend sobbing over death poses -- community I've been a part of so far; and that's been shaped as largely by the experimental way in which @Botulism has approached things as it has by the excellence of the people that have come to participate.

[Jeshin]

@crayon

He still pokes me to see if I'll come back (I'd like too) and he was indeed one of those bittervet types. Horrormu saved my friend from being a killjoy. Thank you @Botulism !

[crayon]

@Jeshin

Nah, I just picked The Killjoy as my Archetype.

[Livia]

@crayon

[Ghost]

Fuck there was a Killjoy archetype? That woulda been my jaaaaaaam

[Botulism]

@Derp I completely own both of the main points in Cons. I need to go through a lot of the basic, meta-level wiki and revise it as things have changed and evolved over time and trial/error. Sometimes these changes never made it to the wiki.

The second point is actually unique to this story. Every story so far has started with a general promise of 'the first X weeks are safe' and you can all get your feet wet and settle in. This story, for the first time so far, I Blew Shit Up (TM) on Day One. Everyone came an inch from dying the first scene. It was a blast, and gave the story a feel of being tossed in at the deep end that's done great things for the IC dread and tension, but yeah. I get how a new player would feel quickly overwhelmed.

I'm sorry that happened to you.

[Botulism]

@Ghost I'm still holding The Wanker for you, if you ever decide to take the plunge.

[Ghost]

@Botulism said in Things I've Learned Running Horror Mu:

@Ghost I'm still holding The Wanker for you, if you ever decide to take the plunge.

Keep holding it.

God, never let it go.