MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity

[peasoupling]

@Waller said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

As the kids say, it me.

I played a character one time with the shtick of "law professor woman who wears men's suits 24/7." The Played By was an actress who is known for her forays into men's clothing. In retrospect, this is pretty cringy, so yeah. I'm very sorry about possibly harming LGBTQIA people thinking I was being oh so clever...when I wasn't being clever at all.

I mean, the character might be terribly cringy for other reasons, but not because she wore men's suits 24/7. Okay, the 24/7 might be, but who even writes a "business description" and a "going to Walmart at 2am description" anyway?

I mean, "law professor who wears men's suits 24/7" probably doesn't shop at Walmart but maybe it's a zombie apocalypse, I don't know.

[Auspice]

@peasoupling said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

but who even writes a "business description" and a "going to Walmart at 2am description" anyway?

@Seraphim73.

[mietze]

You know what makes me sad a little though is that in the rush to prove FUCK YOU MY PC ISN'T A STEREOTYPE I'M DOING THIS RIGHT!!! I have seen people slut shame on game and in discussions. This makes me super uncomfortable because I grew up being taught that "the gays" should just suppress their sexuality so as to not make people uncomfortable with its presence in front of them, and it was open season for anyone who dared display any tells. That kind of thing is STILL going on, especially against trans people. I have seen my son have to deal with that frequently, though usually not from his peers now that they are 16+ rather than middle school.

I think there is still a lot of disparagement and fear of sexuality on MUSHes, not as much as there seemed to be when I was younger/first starting out, but that could be just that I'm so used to seeing it, I think it's easier for me to sift it out now.

I think open sexuality in PCs is perfectly fine. I do not think it's something that should paint the player with a scarlet letter, no matter what the gender dynamics should be. If the attention is directed at someone who has said no thanks, of course that is way different. And of course, there might be IC ramifications (like a PC being booted from their job/organization/facing IC social sanctions) if they are ICly behaving inappropriately.

But to be honest, I don't see this very often. What I see more often is the whisper campaign or OOC slut shaming or derision. I get why it happens. But it still makes me feel pretty sad. It's a real thing, and I have seen it or had it happen on every game I've played (including Arx) no matter how the theme is set up. Sometimes I wonder if people are even really aware that they're even doing it. And I wonder if that's not a shock to some newer folks who maybe have not yet experienced the joy of pre-gamergate SHUT UP SLUT AND GET OUT OF OUR SPACE normalization of what female or gay or any community other than what a very specific subset of straight male fantasy are and aren't allow to be portrayed like.

I think it's a lot more subtle now, but sometimes I wonder generationally when this is encountered in a situation that I would just laugh off/brush off, if there is a reaction similar to my kids' horrified reactions to the haha-funny-rape-joke stuff in 60s-80s movies that I grew up with/loved (just about every romance movie, it's often a plot point that the best friend/brother of the male protagonist will try to "get his girl"), or seeing people just throw trash on the ground/in the ocean, or parents that are portrayed as normal loving parents slapping their children around (Parent Trap Hayley Mills version), or hahaha funny moments about how the girl can be tricked/intoxicated enough for the hero to fuck her even though she doesn't want him to at the time and then she'll fall in love with him. Rewatching my favorite movies that I loved growing up and that were shown (albeit editied for TV) on network television that I got to watch at friends' or relatives' houses with MY teenagers who are older than I was back when I first watched or liked them has been often surprising to me what they see that I never did, because I knew that's just "the way things were, what do you expect."

[mietze]

I think what turns me off more when I see someone RPing something that they probably have no life-experience in, is not so much any mistakes they might make in how they go about doing it, but the weird entitlement that sometimes players get, as if because they have done so much research or whatnot, that somehow that means they are now the expert and can speak with OOC authority about the experience in RL that someone in that group would have. Often times not realizing or even taking into consideration that perhaps the player that they're talking down to on the OOC channel, even though the belittled player has a white male PC, for example, the player is actually a black woman. (I have seen that particular scenario happen. I have seen trans players get told what is and isn't acceptable behavior by cis players playing trans PCs. I have been told by someone who claimed to be a white woman that I was portraying my biracial-and-raised-totally-in-the-dominant-heritage-with-no-connection-to-the-minority-hertigate PC wrong--because she had read an article that different from how I was portraying things and it was different than how she was RPing her PCs experience. I'm a biracial adoptee who grew up in a white family and whose background was hidden because of the bigotry in my extended family).

That's more the transgression that bothers me personally the most. I think people should never assume they know what the player is behind the PC, nor presume that because they have done some research or know a guy that they have some clout OOCly in being experts on the experience. That just come across as...gross.

[Ghost]

@mietze said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

I think what turns me off more when I see someone RPing something that they probably have no life-experience in

This is part of the problem.

1. These are fictional characters. We are not supposed to simply roleplay ourselves and stay in our lane. That I have never been to a galaxy far far away and arent 8 feet tall and covered in hair doesn't mean I can't enjoy playing a Wookiee. That I have a story in mind does not mean I shouldn't write a character of another gender or race. I do not personally need experience being from Spain to write a human who comes from Spain. I can be creative, maybe do a little research, and make shit up in a hobby about being creative and telling stories. It's called being a writer.

2. The judgmental cadre in the hobby who thinks stuff like this (re: people shouldnt play things they don't have experience in) are simply piling on shitty judgment because when they say things like this they're claiming by some divine level of clarity that the person has no experience with that character type; which is rude and presumptuous. Who the fuck are these people to assume and/or judge/weigh someone's level of experience level to gatekeep being able to roleplay something without whisper campaigns?

@Joyeuse. #2 ^^^ is part of the reason why I advise against sharing OOC demographic stuff.

3. People shaming you for what you play based on their biases is bullshit.

Gonna be real for a moment here, @mietze . I don't think you can have it both ways. You shouldn't get upset at people for "slut shaming" but then get annoyed because theyre playing something you havent "judged them" to have experience in. Judgment is ugly, and while some judgments are more valid than others this does not make being judgy truly okay. You shouldn't complain about whisper campaigns but then partake in them. There's another thread hitting these points right now so I'll take it there if it's worth continuing.

My end point is this: People on these games can be fucking judgy, and while this thread started strong with YES WE SUPPORT, the initial platitudes have stopped and we have moved now into the 'well...but its super cringey when...' realm where people are now giving glimpses into the stuff they'll be talking about in pages or discord.

[mietze]

@Ghost Sorry to disturb your assumptions and soapbox a bit, but I'm not talking about me personally judging them for not being part of the group they're portraying, I'm speaking about when they straight out disclose that, but the declare that their research means they can browbeat others about what it is like to be a <insert here> when they in fact have no idea who the other players are, and what their experiences are (and those other players might well be a member of the group that person is white knighting.)

[Ghost]

@mietze I'm also not talking about you specifically. You in the general you out there sense.

[mietze]

@Ghost well, you quoted and tagged me, so.

[Ghost]

@mietze Yes, because it was in reference to your post/concept.

Edit: Well, I mean perhaps a little because you do tend to cherry pick one form of judgment being acceptable but not in a bidirectional way, but altogether my YOU in that was more of a universal statement that happens to include you, me, everyone.

People need to stop being so judgy.

[mietze]

@Ghost said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity

Gonna be real for a moment here, @mietze . I don't think you can have it both ways. You shouldn't get upset at people for "slut shaming" but then get annoyed because theyre playing something you havent "judged them" to have experience in. Judgment is ugly, and while some judgments are more valid than others this does not make being judgy truly okay. You shouldn't complain about whisper campaigns but then partake in them. There's another thread hitting these points right now so I'll take it there if it's worth continuing.

This quote seemed to be talking pretty specifically to me, using language I had used in the post that you were quoting from as well. Now, I do think that part of conversation is using other people's thoughts to launch their own, and that's totally legit! However, hopefully you can see why given that quote above I thought you were directly addressing me personally.

[peasoupling]

@Ghost said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

@mietze Yes, because it was in reference to your post/concept.

It really reads like you were replying to an argument @mietze didn't make. The actual argument was in the rest of the sentence that you left out of the initial quote. It feels like you just read the start of the post and replied to that, ignoring the rest.

[Ghost]

@mietze Okay, hey, but what about the content in my post?

Let's talk about that.

[Ghost]

@peasoupling said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

@Ghost said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

@mietze Yes, because it was in reference to your post/concept.

It really reads like you were replying to an argument @mietze didn't make. The actual argument was in the rest of the sentence that you left out of the initial quote. It feels like you just read the start of the post and replied to that, ignoring the rest.

Nah, I read the whole thing. I'm not gonna touch the whole "this person who plays a cop on TV is telling me what it's like to be a cop in RL" topic. I mean, that stuff is annoying and weird, but I feel it's a mild annoyance.

But what I saw in mietze's first part of the post is pretty common, and it applies to all kinds of stuff: LGBTQ+, race, nationality, parenting, etc. DROVES of people in this hobby bitch and judge constantly in side-pages (aka whisper campaigns) about what people should or should not be doing based on that person's alleged RL demographics, but then also get upset when they, themselves are judged.

I think it's a thing this community needs to work on, and I absolutely think this applies to someone asking about the level of support for queer demographics in the hobby.

To which, I think the answer kinda becomes: Mind the judgment factor, always.

[mietze]

I already said that one cannot and should not assume that the PC reflects the player. When you launched into discussing about how I was assuming that someone didn't have experience, I thought it important to clarify that in my above examples, these were people who disclosed/identified themselves as NOT being part of the group they were portraying, but because of their research and sympathy they could now lecture others on how they were doing things wrong--without bothering to consider that perhaps the players they were lecturing OOCly were in fact members of this group that they were white knighting so hard for.

You just never know. I think most people are very forgiving and tolerant, as long as you're not an ass--I mean they might avoid you, but I have rarely seen people assume actual snidely whiplash levels of malicious intent.

There are always some people though, that need to make sure that everyone, and I mean EVERYONE knows that they are a myopic asshole. Not sure we can ever escape those folks.

[Ghost]

But we should never directly call them myopic assholes because that would be considered a direct insult, and would violate some game and board policies.

Totally 100% agree. It would also be judgy. Which we shouldn't do.

[mietze]

@Ghost Minor quibble, when I have seen people go full out card carrying member of The White Knights of Whatever, it's rarely been in pages--because that wouldn't show off their knowledge and research and how they totally are doing it right and should get to dictate how others should play things. It's always channel conversations. Pub or the equivalent usually. Does this happen in pages or skype or whatever, I'm sure. I don't join off site game groups for that reason, while I am happy to be there for friends, I have enough on my plate RL and otherwise than to have to deal with a circling the toilet bowl of negativity parade that those 'venting spaces' tend to devolve into.

I am not sure why MSB does not trigger the same kind of depression (though certainly it has and does, /especially/ some of the harder discussions we have had as a group about blindness to sexism/racism/homophobia) as a real time or coming into a group with 100s of messages. I can't even personally keep up with just general chatty positive discord or skype channels, except for my family one, so I just don't do 'em. I'm a little in awe of people who can maintain/keep up.

ETA: Nah, I don't have a problem on a game when someone is being an asshole to someone on chan, with asking them to stop behaving that way. I always appreciate it when others do the same as well. I usually do that before sending in a complaint, if it's bad enough, asking staff to please take a look at X channel around Y time, because this player is being very aggressively assholish and not really seeming to be willing or able to look at why people are getting upset. I don't think it's fair to send in a complaint without asking someone to stop, unless it's a safety thing or like--instant-nuke levels of egregious (in which case I think one should just take it to staff without trying to get involved in back and forth with that person).

[mietze]

@Derp said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

There is a certain degree of "unrealisticness" that you have to accept in any sort of fiction endeavor. The intention is the more important part, and whether the character is being played as some sort of cringey gag or is legitimately being played to hilite a certain topic. The line there is sometimes blurry, but I assure you, there is a line.

Totally agree with this.

To launch from it, I think that not only is unrealisticness to some degree need to be accepted, you also probably need to be able to purposefully adapt some things to a mush setting, especially for professions (not so much culturally, though that can happen too!)

I've seen this more with military/cop/medical PCs and players of them who do have that background and get really hung up on how accurate things are in the game. (This is not a majority of players who are part of those professions by far.) Most people I know with those backgrounds who also play a PC from a similar background are often pretty amused by it or the game mechanics around it. But like if you cannot OOCly bend at all, I think it will not make for a happy play experience. I have as a GM had to spend a long time trying to talk a few people down from their distress and anger over combat mechanics, because they were insistent that things don't work that way in RL, ect. Which is totally true! But there's being annoyed and rolling one's eyes and grumbling (totally fair IMO but best done maybe privately with a buddy instead of holding up a scene or venting oocly to the room after every turn), and then there's being very rigid in how things have to look on the game or else one is compelled to fight and lecture, ect.

More broadly, we do have this discussion pop up frequently around racism/homophobia in particular and "historic era" or "history era inspired" mushes too. That's an often uncomfortable one to negotiate too, but again eventually the staff or gamerunner are going to pick the parameters and they may be realistic in some ways but not in others, and the players are just going to have to deal with it or not play there.

That's why I often do try to just sit and be with my discomfort when I encounter stuff that irritates me, unless it's starting to branch out into OOC behavior--and even then ultimately it's not my call as to what is or isn't tolerated by the game! If it's too uncomfortable for me, I can walk away, no harm no foul. If I decide I'd rather stay, then I need to be mindful in how I engage and what my expectations are.

But while I have run in to people who are problematic pretty commonly, I personally would say that for the most part people mean well, and the people who are going to be problems for that game are going to manifest many types of behaviors beyond a hyuckity-yuck stereotype in RPing that will draw attention to themselves.

[Joyeuse]

Wow, there is a lot here that I just woke up to.

[Wretched]

@Joyeuse That happens a lot. Also, Welcome to the community.

[Seraphim73]

@Auspice I feel called out. Accurately, but called out.

ETA: @mietze said in MU*, Youth, and LGBT+ Identity:

I think it's a lot more subtle now, but sometimes I wonder generationally when this is encountered in a situation that I would just laugh off/brush off, if there is a reaction similar to my kids' horrified reactions to the <lots of stuff that wasn't seen as troublesome at the time and is now>

Hell, how about Han and Leia in the Exoggorth in Empire Strikes Back? I thought that was smooth as hell originally, and now I think it's cringy and squicky.