The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc

L. B. Heuschkel

@Tinuviel ... But of course. It shouldn't be, but it was. It's not fair, but it's how it is.

Also, yes, oh god, the offices. I never ever used mine. When I was online, I was in the test area, building and testing my code. Or on a regular character, playing. Not sitting behind an imaginary desk in an imaginary office, enjoying imaginary importance.

Tinuviel

@L-B-Heuschkel I typically used such offices for storing code I was working on, or things that were in use but now aren't but might be needed in the future... Storing NPCs that had to be actual playerbits because reasons. It was storage, like I use my real office for.

JinShei

@Tinuviel off-topic. A friend of mine used to use his to test things. He was coding a room with x number of npc autoattack guards in it. Those needed to be recreated when room loaded but he forgot a line to remove the old ones... Logged in, was attacked by many guards, mud crashed.

Arkandel

@L-B-Heuschkel said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

That's... not acceptable. I've staffed on various online games, and that's never been acceptable anywhere I've been.

Unfortunately acceptable is a funny word when it comes to this hobby. The truth is people have historically tolerated truly abusive behavior from staff and continued to play there - and that's pretty much the definition of having accepted it.

The list of justifications for it is pretty long. Players will claim they've invested too much time to give up, their friends are still playing there, "but other than this the game can be fun", whatever it is... what it comes down is they'll complain and shake their fists at things they claim are important but then they'll go back to playing there anyway, proving that really... such things really aren't that important after all.

What's a little personal dignity when it comes to playing Lady McGuffin on a text-based game who's about to unlock a new secret if her player doesn't rock the boat too much?

L. B. Heuschkel

@Arkandel Yikes. I mean, you're not wrong, but, yikes. Treating fellow players and admins with respect, and respecting their right to privacy, this is a hill I'm willing to die on. Pity it's such a contested hill because yes, people are assholes.

On the offices thing, a final note: The ironic thing was, we all had an office each, just, we weren't allowed to edit the file it was in. So, utterly pointless.

Pandora

I don't expect privacy on a game. I expect staff to use the information gleaned ethically. Maybe it's just me, but I'm not doing anything on a telnet server that I'm ashamed of; my RP is fair, I'm not gaslighting anyone, my TS is bomb, my desire to create RP for others is genuine, and I damn sure am not the friendliest person so it's good in my opinion if staff can see I'm a good player despite loathing most other players. I think we've gotten so entrenched in 'PROTECTIN' MAH RIGHTS!' that people aren't really giving any thought to how (not)useful this so-called right is in the context of a GAME as opposed to real life.

Arkandel

So let's talk romance/TS involving canonical characters. Are there boundaries involved and, if so, what are they? To get us started:

Is it okay to create couples out of characters who are canonically with other people? Can (adult) Peter Parker date Captain Marvel?
Is it okay to change sexual orientations in any way?
After any of this happens and a character changes hands is it okay to revert them to the defaults in the same game?

L. B. Heuschkel

@Arkandel Everything is okay if you can pull it off well enough to convince everyone else...

And therein lies the problem with canon. You can't. Even if you somehow convince the entire current playerbase that Batman is a girl named Sue, new players won't know or recognise this canon.

At least for MUs that are fanworks, I think that tampering with official canon is dangerous, because it means not everyone is on the same page any longer.

Auspice

@Arkandel said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

Is it okay to create couples out of characters who are canonically with other people? Can (adult) Peter Parker date Captain Marvel?

100% yes. Because even in-canon many of these characters dated a wide, broad spread of people. The issue you might sometimes run into is people preferring one pairing getting upset if they don't get it.
I'm a big fan, for example, of NightwingxZatanna (Young Justice ftw). I got to play this with someone on a game a few years ago. Now, Nightwing is KIND OF A MANHO and has been with a number of women over the years and the Starfire on that game was p. convinced from the day my friend made Nightwing (because he and I both like the YJ pairing!) that he was HERS.

This is where this can be a problem. People have their own OTPs. I have a friend who likes to play Green Arrow. On a game, he was already engaged in a relationship IC when someone apped in Black Canary and OTHER PLAYERS began trying to shove her at him, OOC.

Is it okay to change sexual orientations in any way?

I, personally, am not a fan of it. I feel for some of these characters, their sexuality is so baked in (is Tony Stark Tony Stark if he's not a playboy?) that it'd be weird. However, I'm not gonna harsh someone else's fun if they play it that way.

THAT SAID, if anyone else comes up to me and tries to force me to play a certain way? Fuck them. If I ever have someone come along and go 'Hey I really wish <character I'm playing> was <certain sexuality>' and starts pressuring me? They're in the wrong, full stop.

After any of this happens and a character changes hands is it okay to revert them to the defaults in the same game?

This is always up to the game. Some games expect continuity. The character has to stay the same player-to-player. Some do a clean slate. Some let the next player decide.

This is where people tend to get upset over gender-bending and sexuality changes. Because if continuity is required and someone picks up Superman, makes it Superwoman (without it being, say, the actual canonical Superwoman: just a legit genderbent Kal-El, Clara Kent or whatever they'd call her)... what if they walk away? Not a lot of people want to play that. Then you're out two characters because now the Lois-Lane-Superwoman can't be played (the 'Superwoman' name is already taken after all).

Ahem, I wrote a ton more after this, realized I went way off target, but getting back on it:
continuity needs to be fluid on comic games for a number of reasons. The above is one. It's always up to the game creator, but I think the best option is 'let the next player decide if they're gonna keep the current version or make their own.'

Ganymede

@L-B-Heuschkel said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

And therein lies the problem with canon. You can't. Even if you somehow convince the entire current playerbase that Batman is a girl named Sue, new players won't know or recognise this canon.

And yet we see this sort of revisionism with comics today, and fans are just fine with it.

My thoughts are simple: let go of canon. It's not difficult. Superhero games are ultimately exercises in fan-fiction, nothing more. If my Magma is an insecure Allison Crestmere, so be it. If she's afraid of using her powers because of their destructive power, so be it. If she finds herself attracted to Barbara Gordon, so be it. And if my Magma switches hands, it's really no different than Chris Claremont coming in and fucking up everyone's shit.

L. B. Heuschkel

@Ganymede I recognise your point; it's not invalid. Still, I maintain, change small things all you like, but be wary of making large changes to canon -- it will drive future players away. Of course, if you have a stable player base and that is not a concern, knock yourself out.

Ganymede

@L-B-Heuschkel said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

I recognise your point; it's not invalid. Still, I maintain, change small things all you like, but be wary of making large changes to canon -- it will drive future players away.

I concur, but they may not be the players I want in the first place.

Vast deviations from canon are not only acceptable, but encouraged. To-wit: (1) Mr. Freeze's reincarnation under Dini and Timm; (2) the invention of Harley Quinn; (3) Gotham's Oswald Cobblepot; etc.

If you want canon, go read a comic.

Alamias

@Auspice said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

@Arkandel said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

Is it okay to create couples out of characters who are canonically with other people? Can (adult) Peter Parker date Captain Marvel?

KIND OF A MANHO

Is it weird that I play someone who is supposed to be kind of a manho (Luke Cage), but I don't flirt or do much of anything in that regard because I feel weird OOCly that if I RP those elements of him I am afraid I will be labeled as just trolling for TS?

Is it doubly weird that this is coming from the guy that played Kaleb (If you know, you know) where I didn't care if that is how I might have been labeled?

Ghost

I dont care whether or not canon characters (in Mu) stick to canon so long as a small number of my biases are met:

Try to keep everything else to canon. I literally don't care which straight characters are now gay, or which white characters are now Asian. I just don't want to see Jedi Dr Strange who constantly breaks the 4th wall, has his own iron man suit, and was bitten by a radioactive spider.
FOR FUCKS SAKE MAKE IT COUNT. Don't make a gay Wolverine because you intend to just hide in some RP suite having cub, otter, and bear orgies. Make Wolverine gay because youre going to write this character turning over this new leaf in life. I wanna see him confide about it to Storm or Xavier. I wanna see how the character's psychology changes. I could give three fucks whether or not someone thinks it's a neat idea; the whole point is useless if I can't read any of it.

Auspice

@Ganymede said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

Vast deviations from canon are not only acceptable, but encouraged. To-wit: (1) Mr. Freeze's reincarnation under Dini and Timm; (2) the invention of Harley Quinn; (3) Gotham's Oswald Cobblepot; etc.

2 is invalid. It's a new character.

1 & 3 however, in many ways, the core of the character remained very much the same. In Gotham we were witnessing (I only saw the first two seasons, but even so) the characters in their nascent. And I very much saw Cobblepot coming together as we see him later on in comics and the like. A man trying to build an empire (an empire he has in comics). Dini & Timm's Freeze still has a lot of similar motivations and personality.

In the books I own re: comic writing (specifically for Marvel & DC) and in what I studied in school: that's what's important. It's not the canon (how many reboots and lines and all are there anyway?), it's the structure and motivations. This is why people on comic games balk when someone comes in and goes 'I really just want the name'
esp. when there are versions/types of the character that would fit it.
'I wanna be a female Spider-man.'
'so like Spiderwoman?'
'No.'
'What about Spidergwen?'
'No.'
'I just wanna be a female Spider-woman named Sue who grew up in the Bronx and she has four brothers and- <absolutely nothing remotely in common with Spider-man at all other than using the name.>'

What's even the point? Unless the game is FC-only, why not make it an OC? The whole deal with Spider-Man (if we're talking Peter) is that he is a man surrounded by loss, but constantly maintains hope in spite of it. That he is one of the best quippers. That he juggles way too much in life and usually fails, losing the person he loves because of it (if you want him to be gay in this scenario? cool! go for it). If we're talking Miles, he's a guy who inherited the mask and he's trying to balance family and school and taking on the mantle from this legend and it is more weight than a teenager should honestly deal with and it can be a really great coming of age story (tho should prob be altered cuz playing teenagers is hand-wiggle).

Aaaaaaaaanyway. This is part of the rant I stopped myself from because this isn't TS/Relationship related.

@Alamias said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

@Auspice said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

@Arkandel said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

Is it okay to create couples out of characters who are canonically with other people? Can (adult) Peter Parker date Captain Marvel?

KIND OF A MANHO

Is it weird that I play someone who is supposed to be kind of a manho (Luke Cage), but I don't flirt or do much of anything in that regard because I feel weird OOCly that if I RP those elements of him I am afraid I will be labeled as just trolling for TS?

Is it doubly weird that this is coming from the guy that played Kaleb (If you know, you know) where I didn't care if that is how I might have been labeled?

This is, tho!
I think you can RP being a manho without being a manho. NPCs are great for that!

Ghost

@Alamias said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

@Auspice said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

@Arkandel said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

Is it okay to create couples out of characters who are canonically with other people? Can (adult) Peter Parker date Captain Marvel?

KIND OF A MANHO

Is it weird that I play someone who is supposed to be kind of a manho (Luke Cage), but I don't flirt or do much of anything in that regard because I feel weird OOCly that if I RP those elements of him I am afraid I will be labeled as just trolling for TS?

Is it doubly weird that this is coming from the guy that played Kaleb (If you know, you know) where I didn't care if that is how I might have been labeled?

It's not.

The MU community can be very paranoid about intentions and very quick to judge. The line between being in canon and just chose that character to hunt for copious amounts of TS is very thin, depending on who you ask.

Starfire, for example, is an amazing character, but it's also widely believed on an OOC level that people tend to play her to troll for TS with everyone.

Ganymede

@Auspice said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

2 is invalid. It's a new character.

I would argue that one of the hallmarks about the Joker is that he didn't like to work with anyone in particular. In fact, he would rather cruelly get rid of his minions, seemingly at random. The fact that Harley Quinn is an attached constant is a deviation.

In the books I own re: comic writing (specifically for Marvel & DC) and in what I studied in school: that's what's important. It's not the canon (how many reboots and lines and all are there anyway?), it's the structure and motivations. This is why people on comic games balk when someone comes in and goes 'I really just want the name'

I understand this, and your example is taken. But it is an extreme example.

I mean, my version of Magma on ESH was a hard deviation. In the comics, she is more-or-less a very willful, strong woman in her own. I took the "brainwashed minion" trope as justification for making her a fearful, hesitant young woman. And then I took the "geo-thermal manipulation" power set and figured that this is a hesitant young woman with the power to generate volcanoes out of the ground, and is scared shitless by this. So, with few "real" memories, putting her in New York City makes her ... well, very different than any comic version I could dredge up.

Did this upset others? I have no idea; I didn't really interact much in the time I was there, outside a small handful of others.

Auspice

@Ganymede said in The ethics of IC romance, TS, etc:

I mean, my version of Magma on ESH was a hard deviation

To be fair, also: Marvel characters outside the big core 'X-Men' group are easier to 'Year Zero' and just make up your own shit altogether.

In the X-Men: Evolution cartoon, they gender-bent Magma by making her Lance and plunking her in the Brotherhood. Similar character, slightly different powerset, but arguably (IMO I guess) that's exactly where he came from. The 'We need a buddy comedy situ for Pyro....... earth powers would work.... heeeeeeeeeeeey'

And that's how I think people should approach it. Don't just genderbend the FC keeping only the codename (Lance's codename was Avalance). Make your own using the FC as inspiration. Because someone might come along and it'd be like 'But I was- oh well.....'

No one should ever be like 'omg how dare this person have a similar power set to me!' don't have the exact same one - put your own spin on it, but I mean. There's tons of telepaths out there but if Jean Grey player goes to staff and points at the telepath/telekinetic OC and goes OMG THEY'RE COPYING ME, staff is gonna roll their eyes and go 'deal with it, Red.'

this is why I SORT OF think people, deep down, want an OC but also want the 'popularity' that comes with the big name.

Arkandel

We don't need to limit this discussion to only comic book characters since, after all, they are often... flexible background-wise in the comics due to their canonical constant reboots over the years.

What about other kinds of canon? Harry Potter hooking up with Hermione? Ron played as gay? Things that change the sacred original works and would have have a huge effect on how characters end up - does a change of material change your approach at all?

Ghost

@Arkandel My answer remains the same. I don't care so long as it's for story and not for focusing on private RPed kink. I think it would be a serious waste to take on any meaningful canon character only to have 90% of their activity be on the hush.