Punishments in MU*

Ganymede · Nov 20, 2019, 2:00 PM

If you're making an exception to a rule, then it's an exception. If X gets to have a stat at 8 and no one else does, that's an exception. If it's because you trust them with it, then 1) what's so important about that ONE STAT that staff needs to TRUST THE PLAYER for them to be able to have it? and 2) why do other people get to buy it later on if they spend XP on it, if it's so important they couldn't be trusted with it at cgen?

On this issue, I concur. Excepting positions of power and boondoggles that arise therefrom, I believe that all PCs should be coming out of character generation with the same access to skills, traits, and the like, barring systems where traits are supposed to be somewhat unique, like a superhero game.

Coin · Nov 20, 2019, 2:02 PM

@Ganymede said in Punishments in MU*:

@Coin said in Punishments in MU*:

If you're making an exception to a rule, then it's an exception. If X gets to have a stat at 8 and no one else does, that's an exception. If it's because you trust them with it, then 1) what's so important about that ONE STAT that staff needs to TRUST THE PLAYER for them to be able to have it? and 2) why do other people get to buy it later on if they spend XP on it, if it's so important they couldn't be trusted with it at cgen?

On this issue, I concur. Excepting positions of power and boondoggles that arise therefrom, I believe that all PCs should be coming out of character generation with the same access to skills, traits, and the like, barring systems where traits are supposed to be somewhat unique, like a superhero game.

There you go. That was my complaint, not IC positions, because those come with narrative weight that, yes, you typically want someone you can at least trust. They also come with responsibilities.

But stats? Nah, fuck right off with that arbitrary shit.

surreality · Nov 20, 2019, 2:27 PM

@Coin In some systems, those things are linked. CoD being a prime example. There's only one prince status slot, for instance. They're corner case issues, but they are out there.

Tinuviel · Nov 20, 2019, 2:30 PM

@surreality said in Punishments in MU*:

There's only one prince status slot, for instance.

I super hate this mechanic.

Coin · Nov 20, 2019, 2:31 PM

@surreality said in Punishments in MU*:

@Coin In some systems, those things are linked. CoD being a prime example. There's only one prince status slot, for instance. They're corner case issues, but they are out there.

"Prince" is not a Stat, it's a position, especially in CofD. You can be a Status 3 Prince and just be a Prince without a lot of high Status; many Princes who heavily need the support of their fellow elders, etc., could fall into this category. So there is some overlap, but it's negligible regarding what we're talking about.

You can also say, "I would only allow an IC Prince played by a player I personally trust because of the narrative and story effects the position has," and not sound completely ridiculous, whereas, "I will only allow people I trust to have Melee 5 at chargen but everyone else can buy it later" makes you sound like a dumbass.

Tinuviel · Nov 20, 2019, 2:32 PM

@Coin A lot of the time Status 5 (for instance) is reserved for the Prince. And only the Prince. This is a stupid method and needs to stop.

Coin · Nov 20, 2019, 2:33 PM

@Tinuviel said in Punishments in MU*:

@Coin A lot of the time Status 5 (for instance) is reserved for the Prince. And only the Prince. This is a stupid method and needs to stop.

That is not a fault of the system, that is a fault of the game administrators not using the system the way it was designed. A whole separate peeve.

Tinuviel · Nov 20, 2019, 2:35 PM

@Coin said in Punishments in MU*:

@Tinuviel said in Punishments in MU*:

@Coin A lot of the time Status 5 (for instance) is reserved for the Prince. And only the Prince. This is a stupid method and needs to stop.

That is not a fault of the system, that is a fault of the game administrators not using the system the way it was designed. A whole separate peeve.

Oh I am aware. But we're talking about the judgement of game administrators, so it's fitting. In those instances, the stat and the position are intertwined.

ETA: That said, "narrative" stats like Renown or Status etc would still be things restricted to those that can be trusted to use them appropriately right out of the gate. I suppose.

Derp · Nov 20, 2019, 2:34 PM

Sure, Status is one thing. But then we talk about things like Renown. There is no way I'm letting your slobbering spirit-eating locus-destroying werewolf have Wisdom 5 just because you have the xp for it. Sorry, no. Also fuck you.

surreality · Nov 20, 2019, 2:36 PM

@Coin Most places I've seen have linked it, as you quoted.

There are systems out there where positions and stats are linked in some form. That's all. Those are going to involve an exception to the universal statement. I don't see any drama there or reason for you to be making it.

Coin · Nov 20, 2019, 2:36 PM

@Derp said in Punishments in MU*:

Sure, Status is one thing. But then we talk about things like Renown. There is no way I'm letting your slobbering spirit-eating locus-destroying werewolf have Wisdom 5 just because you have the xp for it. Sorry, no. Also fuck you.

That's not arbitrary, though.

I feel like you're off-course. If I app a "spirit-eating locus-destroying" werewolf and want high Wisdom, it makes sense to deny it. If I app a spirit-attached, locus-curating werewolf and want Wisdom 5 and you deny it, but this other character who is also a spirit-attached, locus-curating werewolf got it, it's arbitrary.

Don't muddy the issue.

Coin · Nov 20, 2019, 2:40 PM

@surreality said in Punishments in MU*:

@Coin Most places I've seen have linked it, as you quoted.

There are systems out there where positions and stats are linked in some form. That's all. Those are going to involve an exception to the universal statement.

Sure, and in those systems those Stats are usually basically just that: marks of position. But again, exceptions to every rule. My response was to the fact that CofD, in particular, i.e. your example, does separate them.

I don't see any drama there or reason for you to be making it.

Uh, okay?

DareDaemon · Nov 20, 2019, 2:45 PM

@Derp said in Punishments in MU*:

Sure, Status is one thing. But then we talk about things like Renown. There is no way I'm letting your slobbering spirit-eating locus-destroying werewolf have Wisdom 5 just because you have the xp for it. Sorry, no. Also fuck you.

So long as the policy for getting a stat such as that is applied consistently and transparently. Cool.

That's the important thing with hoops and stats, consistency and transparency. Tell people what the hoops are and don't hand out exceptions for any PC. (NPCs, of course, can have whichever stats their role demands. So long as the NPCs are actually NPCs and not just staff alts with an excuse.)

(Also people who hold positions of power should have them for thematic reasons, and in general that isn't 'because they have better stats than you' unless the theme is explicitly one where the strongest leads or something like that. Even then, stats should never be replacing RP, only supplement it.)

Tinuviel · Nov 20, 2019, 2:47 PM

@DareDaemon said in Punishments in MU*:

don't hand out exceptions for any PC

Why not?

Arkandel · Nov 20, 2019, 2:48 PM

The monolithic setup of all-powerful Princes is as much a leftover from most table-top setups as anything else. You can absolutely run a Praxis with someone in charge only because other, more influential powers are propping them up for their own purposes, hostage to their whims or desperately trying to keep themselves afloat.

But @Coin is right (in this case, obviously, not usually) in that there are a lot of arbitrary decisions made by staff which are not applied universally and that creates discrepancies or the perceptions of favoritism which is almost as bad as the thing itself. A common phenomenon for example is for one sphere to apply different standards for shared stats than another on the same game; I recall in HM someone had denied Medicine 4 for Werewolf because they were 'only a medical student' when there were literal Medicine 5 nineteen year olds in other spheres.

Coin · Nov 20, 2019, 2:48 PM

@Tinuviel said in Punishments in MU*:

@DareDaemon said in Punishments in MU*:

don't hand out exceptions for any PC

Why not?

Wouldda thought you learned that on The Reach.

<.<.

(Good natured ribbing, I assure you.)

Tinuviel · Nov 20, 2019, 2:50 PM

@Coin said in Punishments in MU*:

@Tinuviel said in Punishments in MU*:

@DareDaemon said in Punishments in MU*:

don't hand out exceptions for any PC

Why not?

Wouldda thought you learned that on The Reach.

<.<.

(Good natured ribbing, I assure you.)

I didn't handle most of the stat upgrades during my time there, so that hardly applies.

Coin · Nov 20, 2019, 2:51 PM

@Tinuviel said in Punishments in MU*:

@Coin said in Punishments in MU*:

@Tinuviel said in Punishments in MU*:

@DareDaemon said in Punishments in MU*:

don't hand out exceptions for any PC

Why not?

Wouldda thought you learned that on The Reach.

<.<.

(Good natured ribbing, I assure you.)

I didn't handle most of the stat upgrades during my time there, so that hardly applies.

Same general lesson learned, or so I would think!

Although I am loathe to continue the general ribbing in this sense because I don't actually care about something so far back and I wouldn't want the back and forth to turn ugly. It was, after all, just a joke.

At your expense.

But a joke. >.>

Tinuviel · Nov 20, 2019, 2:52 PM

@Coin said in Punishments in MU*:

It was, after all, just a joke.

At your expense.

But a joke. >.>

If you have to explain it as such, perhaps it wasn't.

Coin · Nov 20, 2019, 2:53 PM

@Tinuviel said in Punishments in MU*:

@Coin said in Punishments in MU*:

It was, after all, just a joke.

At your expense.

But a joke. >.>

If you have to explain it as such, perhaps it wasn't.

Maybe not a good one, alas.