Anyone kind enough to help me with oWoD?
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@Ghost said in Anyone kind enough to help me with oWoD?:
@Seamus said in Anyone kind enough to help me with oWoD?:
@Ghost said in Anyone kind enough to help me with oWoD?:
I'll poke in here and note that whether or not Kinfolk are second class citizens isnt a standard.
It varies based on tribe, auspice, personality, etc.
Some tribes, garou, auspices might argue that the litany only requires them do certain things but doesn't inherently make them in charge. "Cleaving to the mortal world" doesn't mean to treat kinfolk like baby farms who dont count, but could also mean to cleave to their wisdom and respect them for their burden to be the parents of children who they will inevitably have to see go off to fight with a life expectancy of less than 10 years post-change.
W:tA, like all WoD, is subject to the whims and interpretation of the people who play it, but nowhere in the books does it state these things to be standards.
It is absolutely possible that a pack could bind around a Kinfolk as the heart and soul of their pack.
I imagine the Tribes most likely to treat Kinfolk as 2nd class to be: Get of Fenris, Shadow Lords, Red Talons, Silver Fangs, and maybe Uktena
But could I see Wendigo, Black Furies, Children of Gaia, and Glass Walkers honoring their kinfolk at higher levels? Totally.
Red Talons don't have human kinfolk, that survive...
Right, but even their lupine kinfolk are litter machines
I would argue, in their case, that's probably the most accurate reason. They prefer the feral life, and while female wolves are valuable to the pack, they are just animals and the Talons tend to defer to their animalistic nature more oft than not. So in this one case, that's probably the most correct portrayal of what a female Kinfolk would be doing.. Which is why most games don't allow Talon Kinfolk.
Pay no attention to me. I'm old, jaded and generally unfriendly. I am prone to fits of stupidity, but I am still unique, just like everyone else. ~~ Current President of the Anti-Faraday fan club.
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@Seamus said in Anyone kind enough to help me with oWoD?:
@Ghost said in Anyone kind enough to help me with oWoD?:
@Seamus said in Anyone kind enough to help me with oWoD?:
@Ghost said in Anyone kind enough to help me with oWoD?:
I'll poke in here and note that whether or not Kinfolk are second class citizens isnt a standard.
It varies based on tribe, auspice, personality, etc.
Some tribes, garou, auspices might argue that the litany only requires them do certain things but doesn't inherently make them in charge. "Cleaving to the mortal world" doesn't mean to treat kinfolk like baby farms who dont count, but could also mean to cleave to their wisdom and respect them for their burden to be the parents of children who they will inevitably have to see go off to fight with a life expectancy of less than 10 years post-change.
W:tA, like all WoD, is subject to the whims and interpretation of the people who play it, but nowhere in the books does it state these things to be standards.
It is absolutely possible that a pack could bind around a Kinfolk as the heart and soul of their pack.
I imagine the Tribes most likely to treat Kinfolk as 2nd class to be: Get of Fenris, Shadow Lords, Red Talons, Silver Fangs, and maybe Uktena
But could I see Wendigo, Black Furies, Children of Gaia, and Glass Walkers honoring their kinfolk at higher levels? Totally.
Red Talons don't have human kinfolk, that survive...
Right, but even their lupine kinfolk are litter machines
I would argue, in their case, that's probably the most accurate reason. They prefer the feral life, and while female wolves are valuable to the pack, they are just animals and the Talons tend to defer to their animalistic nature more oft than not. So in this one case, that's probably the most correct portrayal of what a female Kinfolk would be doing.. Which is why most games don't allow Talon Kinfolk.
Curveball: Red Talon Lupine Kinfolk who is a Gaian Kami/Posessed (who can also shapeshift into hoo-manz)
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@Jennkryst said in Anyone kind enough to help me with oWoD?:
@Seamus said in Anyone kind enough to help me with oWoD?:
@Ghost said in Anyone kind enough to help me with oWoD?:
@Seamus said in Anyone kind enough to help me with oWoD?:
@Ghost said in Anyone kind enough to help me with oWoD?:
I'll poke in here and note that whether or not Kinfolk are second class citizens isnt a standard.
It varies based on tribe, auspice, personality, etc.
Some tribes, garou, auspices might argue that the litany only requires them do certain things but doesn't inherently make them in charge. "Cleaving to the mortal world" doesn't mean to treat kinfolk like baby farms who dont count, but could also mean to cleave to their wisdom and respect them for their burden to be the parents of children who they will inevitably have to see go off to fight with a life expectancy of less than 10 years post-change.
W:tA, like all WoD, is subject to the whims and interpretation of the people who play it, but nowhere in the books does it state these things to be standards.
It is absolutely possible that a pack could bind around a Kinfolk as the heart and soul of their pack.
I imagine the Tribes most likely to treat Kinfolk as 2nd class to be: Get of Fenris, Shadow Lords, Red Talons, Silver Fangs, and maybe Uktena
But could I see Wendigo, Black Furies, Children of Gaia, and Glass Walkers honoring their kinfolk at higher levels? Totally.
Red Talons don't have human kinfolk, that survive...
Right, but even their lupine kinfolk are litter machines
I would argue, in their case, that's probably the most accurate reason. They prefer the feral life, and while female wolves are valuable to the pack, they are just animals and the Talons tend to defer to their animalistic nature more oft than not. So in this one case, that's probably the most correct portrayal of what a female Kinfolk would be doing.. Which is why most games don't allow Talon Kinfolk.
Curveball: Red Talon Lupine Kinfolk who is a Gaian Kami/Posessed (who can also shapeshift into hoo-manz)
points GO BACK TO MUMMY WHERE YOU BELONG!
Pay no attention to me. I'm old, jaded and generally unfriendly. I am prone to fits of stupidity, but I am still unique, just like everyone else. ~~ Current President of the Anti-Faraday fan club.
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@Seamus Fine.
Make a Silent Strider Kinfolk who died and came back as a Mummy, because that's how oMummy worked.
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I think this is a case of being sure to know or learn the culture of this particular game. In all the WoD lines there are really awesome stories to be told for the minor splat in the sphere that are just as interesting as the supers. But realistically as a player that PREFERS the minor role (ghoul will forever be my WoD love), the sphere may be populated by super players who arent really interested in seeing people who play the roles as anything but TS hounds because that's all this players see in the "minor/support" role. That tends to attract players who aren't interested in being more than that over time (which there isn't anything inherently wrong with someone focusing on that aspect of play IMO) which means that you may not find meaningful stories with other non-super PCs in the sphere (which have always been some of my favorite stories in that role). Sometimes staff does a great job of changing the culture so that ghouls/kinfolk/kinain have value and compelling stories both with the super community and with each other (the most enriching RP I have had in WoD was on RfK as a ghoul because of the encouragement and interest of other people playing them to have our own stories as well as that with our various vampires/coteries).
But on a free for all game with little staff management, I'd say pick your pack wisely and make sure you know oocly if the folks you are coming in with are enthusiastic about creating stories that you like with you too. And just be prepared to take some ooc flack, you are likely to get dismissed as only interested in TS if you are kinfolk or ghoul with many folks. Hopefully the culture of the game is more supportive.
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My thoughts from trial and error over the years:
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"Make a person first" is correct. What's "useful" is so given to change from plot to plot and week to week, and is always so different on a MUSH than in a closed-loop tabletop campaign, that the main priority should definitely be coming up with a character you feel excited to play for their own sake. Recently, I made a character that was intended as useful (and he was), but who had "stuff I like" in place of a coherent personality, and after a while I was just bored and frustrated with playing him. I traded him in for someone less immediately useful but who had a personality that I invested more in, and she's been barrels of fun to play.
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"Be prepared to be at the back of the line" is also correct. Not everyone treats kinfolk/ghouls like second-class citizens, true, but I would say that's an exception to the rule (and again, something that maybe works better in closed campaigns than open-world MUSH stuff). In most situations, a ghoul or a kinfolk is going to be a secondary concern in ongoing plots. At worst, they're a walking blood bag/walking fertile womb. Hope for the best but prepare for the worst.
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App something you're going to be fine with playing as-is and building upon. I've run into more than one player who's been frustrated about their character because they conceptualized some badass super-wizard or something, and want to play that immediately, but can't access the badass super-wizard powers with just chargen XP. So whatever you make, make sure you're not going to end up resenting it for only being half of what you really want it to be.
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You will rarely get a workable answer to 'What should I (X) on (Y) game?' from people who don't play the game, as they won't know the people and culture of that game. We all know that spheres in games deviate wildly from the write-up in the source books, based on what the most-active or most-influential players have set as the pace and tone of play.
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Another WoD peeve.
In the LARP scene there was a term: "Rare and Unusual"(RU). It was for the things in the game that were so rare and unusual that STs had to police how many were allowed/in play or else there'd be 50 of them running around because they're the cool, new thing.
My stance: If you are incapable of making a Ventrue Camarilla member interesting, then you are not a good candidate for RU characters. You should not be allowed to supplement lack of creativity with RU.
Unfortunately, with online/LARP WoD players, the constant drive for interesting by character type decision is a known bad habit. Many players seem to try to make their characters stand out by being these creative sheet-level decisions and not due to character personality. IMO nWoD only made this worse by adding some 6+ levels of configuration complexity.
To steal a Monte Cook'ism...
oWoD: "I am a Ventrue Camarilla member who..."
nWoD: "I am a CLAN, BLOODLINE, 2ND BLOODLINE, SECT, SUBSECT who..."
Not that oWoD didn't have bloodlines and its own set of RU corner cases, but oWoD seemed to regard RU system-wise as flaggable, whereas nWoD seemed to embrace it.
Anyway, a peeve. Not making fun of anyone. It's just that every time I see "My character is a Kinfolk Mage Thinblood Half-Ghost Changing Breed Rabbit who is a member of Task Force Valkyrie and is 1/5th keuijin" I kinda go "Yanno, if this character were so interesting, they'd be just as interesting as a...Toreador. All that salad on the character sheet is neat, but IMO misses the point and further promotes WoD being about super weird and RU configurations."
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@Ghost It's actually an interesting design note on the o/nWoD change there. While nWoD looks more 'standardized' at the basic level (mostly uniform 5x5 chargen options, ie clan/sect, path/order, auspice/tribe), they also include tertiary customization options that are OOCly less 'weird' (bloodlines, legacies, lodges - plus all the changeling stuff, it obviously doesn't quite follow the formula of the others). This feels like an acknowledgment that while the 'rare and unusual' shouldn't be necessary to make a character interesting, 25 combinations might not be enough concept diversity for players in the long run.
Then if you look back at old Vampire, which really only gave you the basic clan selection for whatever sect your game was playing, or similarly Mage, its evident that there were fewer choices still (Werewolf did have a lot, by contrast). In both editions, this is often compounded by many of the powers being shared: most vampires use combinations of common disciplines, all mages have the same powers (especially as they advance), etc. So providing bloodline disciplines, legacy abilities, etc becomes a relevant way to mechanically distinguish PCs.
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@bored It really comes down to basis of opinion. I think in MU the more the numbers creep up the less individualistic a character might feel, especially when you add in alts. Maybe it's just my "old school" showing, but back in the day there were 7 Camarilla clans and few bloodlines and I saw people dig for a whole lot of complexity without the need/existence of those things. Stuff like Bloodlines/RU stuff like Koldunic Sorcery grew in popularity, which I suspect is why they ended up common CG options with nWoD.
Still, back in the day of 7ClanCam, I think players who found ways to make their "painter Toreador" stand out amidst 2 or 3 other "painter Toreadors" was part of the art form.
