Separating Art From Artist

[Ganymede]

@insomniac7809 said in Separating Art From Artist:

But is it really the case that an employer is required to renew a contract (not terminate an existing one) if they don't care to?

I know of no states that require renewal of a contract of employment by statute or case law, but there are contracts that automatically renew unless there is a termination.

And a company can have a legitimate reason to fire someone for their personal conduct. Who remembers Jared?

You need a legitimate reason to terminate if you want to avoid paying unemployment for the terminated employee too in most jurisdictions. Employment contracts may also be terminated for default.

[bored]

@Kestrel You're choosing to cherry pick to avoid being uncomfortable or wrong.

You might live in the UK, but there's been plenty of discussion about America-specific topics/situations (ie the KKK, Charlottesville guy, etc). I have never talked about Rowling, and my discussion was with Ganymede about the US (again, Charlottesville). And you came and @'ed me about it. You don't get to do that and then say you're not talking about the topic I was actually talking about.

It's also pretty clear from context and other comments that you've made, that while you may be in the UK, you would support people in the US being fired for their tweets (so long as they're people you don't like, anyway). Are you disavowing that?

Really, everything about how you argue is disingenuous and evasive. The stuff about being fired for activism is another example ('I dont want to work for a company that would fire me, lolz!' - shitting on every person who doesn't have your freedom of job choice), but at this point it's hardly worth the effort.

[Derp]

@bored said in Separating Art From Artist:

@Kestrel said in Separating Art From Artist:

Literally no one is treating at-will employment as a good thing.

You seem to be arguing that you don't support it, but only because you're in the UK. In the US, the only way people are getting fired for tweets (which you 100% support) is via at-will employment laws or (equally shady and anti-labor) 'morality clauses' in contracts. You can't separate the two things. If you want people to be able fired for (edit: relatively trivial - yes people can be fired for crimes and such) things that have literally nothing to do with their job, you're in favor of anti-labor employment laws. Consequences, as you like to say!

This is a false dichotomy.

You did. See? Right there. Bolded sections mine.

@Bored attempted to point out that believing, universally, that certain actions should come with certain consequences necessitates accepting that those consequences have to happen within an inseparable legal framework, which you attempted to say was a false dichotomy and that he was setting up a strawman.

The UK may have different laws, but UK law is not universal law, any more than US law is. But US law is more restrictive, and in order for it to happen in the US, you must by necessity use at-will employment, or in places where at-will employment was explicitly revoked in order to protect against pretextual end-runs of legally protected statuses the substantial equivalent, you are in fact supporting the substantial equivalent of at-will employment.

Unless you think that only citizens of the UK should be subject to such. Is that what you're arguing?

[Ganymede]

@Kestrel said in Separating Art From Artist:

what the fuck

Intellectuals can be very despicable people.

Let’s start with professors. Do you think that they get tenure simply by being present? No, most have had to contribute something of considerable value to their respective universities. And once they get that nugget, they often don’t give a shit about teaching the kids that spend their freedom for a piece of paper. If professionalism is about doing what you’re being paid to do? They aren’t professional.

Then there are lawyers. Oh shit, we spend entire classes teaching about professionalism. In the United States you have to pass an ethics exam. But does being professional or ethical win cases? Does it help you apply leverage to swing the best deals for your clients? Becoming partner is about what you bring to the firm in term of money, not conduct. Dressing down your staff for not doing things you are ultimately responsible for doesn’t make you a professional; it makes you a tyrant.

I highly doubt there is much difference between the US and the UK in such respect, but I could be wrong.

[Roz]

@Auspice said in Separating Art From Artist:

@Kestrel said in Separating Art From Artist:

So in the US, you can say whatever you want around your colleagues, behave unprofessionally, prove yourself unsuitable for the job you were hired for and not get fired?

This is sort of a benefit to at-will employment. Because in an at-will state, an employer could absolutely fire you for -phobic rants.

People often worry about 'but what if I get fired for being LGBT and my boss is religious' and at-will does not apply where it'd be illegal (you can't be fired for your religion, sexuality, race, etc.).

There are lots of states where it's still legal to discriminate based on sexuality and gender identity, FTR. They're not explicitly federally protected classes. Some states have made it explicit, though.

[Derp]

@Roz

That's true, and I should have mentioned that. Not all employers fall under the auspices of either federal or state laws. Small businesses rarely fall under either.

[Pandora]

Some U.S. states are pushing for new distinctions in law that I'm sure are going to be seen as discrimination against gender-identity due to push-back about how gender-identity is overshadowing sex-based rights. States Weigh Measures to Stop Transgender Athletes From Competing in Women’s Sports

[Roz]

@Derp said in Separating Art From Artist:

@Roz

That's true, and I should have mentioned that. Not all employers fall under the auspices of either federal or state laws. Small businesses rarely fall under either.

Eh, I think discrimination of protected classes doesn't have requirements based on size the way some other federal requirements do (like FMLA). But my point was that LGBT employees are often not protected in the US because their sexuality and/or gender identity are not federally protected (explicitly, in any case, but I understand it's an ongoing argument), so it'll depend if they're in a state that's passed laws protecting the classes. tl;dr we don't protect all the classes of people that ought to be protected, which makes certain classes of people extremely vulnerable in an at-will employment situation.

[Derp]

@Roz said in Separating Art From Artist:

Eh, I think discrimination of protected classes doesn't have requirements based on size the way some other federal requirements do (like FMLA).

In employment they do. 15 or more employees, or 20+ for age discrimination.

Agree with the rest.

I do not know how updated this is, but here is a link with minimum number of state employees to be covered under state laws, too:

https://www.workplacefairness.org/minimum

And here is what the federal stuff looks like:

https://www.eeoc.gov/employers/smallbusiness/faq/do_laws_apply.cfm

[TNP]

@Roz said in Separating Art From Artist:

Eh, I think discrimination of protected classes doesn't have requirements based on size the way some other federal requirements do (like FMLA). But my point was that LGBT employees are often not protected in the US because their sexuality and/or gender identity are not federally protected (explicitly, in any case, but I understand it's an ongoing argument), so it'll depend if they're in a state that's passed laws protecting the classes. tl;dr we don't protect all the classes of people that ought to be protected, which makes certain classes of people extremely vulnerable in an at-will employment situation.

The Trump Administration Is Fighting at the Supreme Court to Let Employers Fire Queer and Trans Workers

[hedgehog]

Clearly a great many people are better at separating art and artist than I am, given the fact that venues for the upcoming Front Line Assembly/KMFDM/Ministry tour keep selling out in spite of the fact that this dropped yesterday:

https://www.billboard.com/articles/columns/rock/8548353/ministry-guitarist-sin-quirin-accused-underage-sexual-relationships

Given the depth of research and lack of mention of the tour, it's pretty clear that this article's been in the pipeline for a while. Meanwhile, I am having a bit of a crisis of conscience, even though I grabbed tickets to support the opener and neither of the other bands. Ministry has yet to publish any sort of comment that isn't through the lawyer that they share with the accused party.

Even Lords of Acid have fired the dude. If you're too gross for Praga Khan? You're pretty fucking gross.

[Pandora]

@hedgehog I'd feel bad for the opener if people don't show up because of allegations against some other dude, but even if you don't go, at least you've already given them the monetary support.

[Kestrel]

I'm not going to weigh in on what @hedgehog should do. The tickets were already bought without prior knowledge of the situation and the money is already spent. The only real question then IMHO is whether you're still going to enjoy the show. If not, one other option is to sell the tickets on StubHub; that way at least it isn't wasted on your part even if it still goes into the same pocket.

I will say though that I don't ever feel bad for the rich and famous losing said fame and wealth. I can't imagine why I would.

[hedgehog]

@Kestrel

My friends who are involved with the opening band aren't exactly rich at this point, but otherwise? Nah, I feel zero remorse about not wanting to support Ministry, especially since Chris Connelly has even distanced himself and decided not to perform on the tour.

That said, I have no idea if anyone has gotten advances from the booking agency handling the tour, or if they're going to get cashed out at the end of it while surviving on per diems. I only bought tickets myself because my friend in the opening band has a goldfish-like memory (I know that that's a fallacy, but it's a handy analogy) and I am not banking on getting a laminate. Also, it's always been my MO to get tickets for gigs rather than rely on list, because so many of these shows don't operate on guarantees and rely on sales and take at the door.

I am super proud of Chris for bowing out. Especially as he has a tweenaged daughter of his own.

[eye8urcake]

@hedgehog I am kind of incredibly disappointed to hear this about Ministry.

[hedgehog]

@eye8urcake

Well, KMFDM worked with the jackass, too. Collaborated in 2017. The only act on that bill that is above reproach, as far as that is concerned, is Front Line Assembly. I just wish they'd make a statement.