The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread
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@Groth I think it's possible that one could ask people who want to play Japanese characters to understand that part of the culture is no longer in play (Just like there is a pretty huge shift in people's thinking about the rights of women, people of color, and LGBTQ+ folks). And again, maybe that IS coming, rulings wise.
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@mietze said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:
@Groth I think it's possible that one could ask people who want to play Japanese characters to understand that part of the culture is no longer in play (Just like there is a pretty huge shift in people's thinking about the rights of women, people of color, and LGBTQ+ folks). And again, maybe that IS coming, rulings wise.
There's certainly options that can be pursued like removing state shinto from the timeline or having Hirohito die to the military coup etc.
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As a member of the Imperial Japanese Army, this character was (without a doubt) a participant in the crimes that were committed in China. In my opinion, whether or not they were direct or willing participants is not relevant. "Just following orders" did not work at Nuremburg and it should not work with the Sky Guard.
Just as players cannot play former Nazis, I do not think players should be able to play former IJA. There were many members of the Japanese public that protested against the actions of their nation, and there were members of the IJA that defected to the side of the Chinese. It is not completely unrealistic for Japanese characters to go against their own country, it happened many times in history. Japanese war crimes do not have to be written out of the setting in order to facilitate this.
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@juneko said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:
As a member of the Imperial Japanese Army, this character was (without a doubt) a participant in the crimes that were committed in China.
The character in question is a former member of the Imperial Japanese Navy Airservice
What is obvious to you may not be obvious to me and vice versa.
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@Groth said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:
I'm not seeing people express the idea that Hirohito wasn't actually all that bad as much as I see the expression of the idea that the characters wouldn't be aware that Hirohito was actually that bad.
Really?
@lordbelh said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:
Furthermore, clearly while the character worships the Emperor, she blames the higher ups in the military for the actions of Imperial Japan at present. We can argue how much blame Hirohito deserves (seems a decent amount), but that's really besides the point.
@faraday said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:
I think @Autumn raises a valid point about cultural bias/perspective/whatever, because on reflection, in America we (generally as a society) really don't equate the Imperial Japanese as being "just as bad" as the Nazis. There were war crimes, sure, but I don't think we generally view them as being in the same league. In fact, I'd say that equivalency would be frowned upon here as calling back to the anti-Japanese sentiment that led to Manzanar and other badness.
@Seraphim73 said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:
As to the question of Japanese military characters, we've been very careful to ensure that those who have been approved are not aligned with the military forces who are instigating the war crimes in China and Korea (and would be responsible for other ones elsewhere later in history). There is definitely some nuance and question (from what I have read) about how directly involved in all of that Emperor Hirohito was, but I agree that we need to be careful -- probably more careful than we have been in the past.
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@Groth said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:
@juneko said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:
As a member of the Imperial Japanese Army, this character was (without a doubt) a participant in the crimes that were committed in China.
The character in question is a former member of the Imperial Japanese Navy Airservice
... so they were bombing innocents, instead of beheading them? Phew. Dodged a bullet with that one, I guess.
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@marsmrsmars said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:
@Groth said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:
I'm not seeing people express the idea that Hirohito wasn't actually all that bad as much as I see the expression of the idea that the characters wouldn't be aware that Hirohito was actually that bad.
Really?
@juneko said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:
don't see why there is any hand-wringing about ex-IJA characters.
Second of all: people in this thread are weirdly veering toward outright revisionism whenever they question whether or not Hirohito had any involvement in his country's crimes.I can speak only for myself, but I am certainly not wringing hands or attempting to defend Hirohito or the IJA's war crimes in any fashion. I don't even play on the game, so I have no vested interest here one way or the other.
My point earlier was about a general cultural perspective. Someone said that learning about IJA war crimes is "elementary school history" but it isn't - at least not universally in America. I'd venture to say that the average American knows almost nothing about the Japanese war beyond the bombing of Pearl Harbor. The Holocaust is discussed extensively in our schools. Nanjing is maybe a few sentences in a chapter somewhere.
Again, I'm not saying this is right or fair - just that it's reality.
Then there's the Hollywood portrayal. Here's an interesting commentary on the recent movie Midway:
As a historian, the most interesting thing about the recent Second World War blockbuster Midway is director Roland Emmerich’s portrayal of the Japanese enemy in a largely sympathetic light. Nowhere is this more apparent than the parting dedication onscreen: “This film is dedicated to the Americans and Japanese who fought at Midway. The sea remembers its own.” ... The Japanese are depicted as courageous, professional sailors fulfilling their patriotic duty, in some cases nobly sacrificing themselves for a cause that they believed was just and honourable.
This is a general trend in Hollywood, no more apparent than in the movie Letters from Iwo Jima, which presented the IJA perspective in a mostly favorable light. It won widespread critical acclaim, including a nomination for Best Picture.
Knowing these cultural factors at play, I can completely understand how somebody might want to play a "noble Japanese soldier" PC on a MUSH with no ill will intended.
Knowing a fair bit about the Pacific theater myself as an armchair historian, I can also completely understand why folks would be upset by this. The author of that Midway article mentioned as much as well.
Clearly, Emmerich’s own familial experiences and position as an ‘outsider’ helped engender this perspective. However, this characterisation is sure to test the limits of empathy for many audiences, who will view the entire exercise as somehow seeking to gloss over Japan’s reprehensible record of wartime atrocities.
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@marsmrsmars said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:
... so they were bombing innocents, instead of beheading them? Phew. Dodged a bullet with that one, I guess.
If you're not comfortable with characters associated with a force that bombed civilians, you're going to have a really hard time with any airman or woman who comes from any WW2 participant nation.
What is obvious to you may not be obvious to me and vice versa.
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@Groth said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:
@marsmrsmars said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:
... so they were bombing innocents, instead of beheading them? Phew. Dodged a bullet with that one, I guess.
If you're not comfortable with characters associated with a force that bombed civilians, you're going to have a really hard time with any airman or woman who comes from any WW2 participant nation.
Ah, that makes it all better. Good to see where you stand on things.
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@faraday
I understand this perspective entirely, and I think that there is room for "shades of gray" in media which portrays Imperial Japanese soldiers. However, I also think that it would be enlightening to wonder, for a moment, why there are no movies like this from the Chinese perspective.@Groth
Bomber Harris, do it again. -
@juneko said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:
@faraday
I understand this perspective entirely, and I think that there is room for "shades of gray" in media which portrays Imperial Japanese soldiers. However, I also think that it would be enlightening to wonder, for a moment, why there are no movies like this from the Chinese perspective.Sinophobia, Japanophilia, Cold War propaganda, etc?
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@peasoupling
I think Japanophilia is the only reason that we're having this conversation right now. It is a matter of historical fact that MacArthur insulated the Japanese imperial family from criminal accusations for political reasons. -
@juneko said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:
@faraday
I understand this perspective entirely, and I think that there is room for "shades of gray" in media which portrays Imperial Japanese soldiers. However, I also think that it would be enlightening to wonder, for a moment, why there are no movies like this from the Chinese perspective.Hollywood is extremely unlikely to ever make any war movie where neither of the sides are western. They would have absolutely no idea how to cast or market such a movie.
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If you are talking about movies from a Chinese perspective in American media in particular, I think the answer is obvious. Racism, the fact that the Chinese were (yes, I know rather incorrectly) seen as being just as good as part of the USSR during the cold war, the fact that American society always loves to shit on people we see as "losers" of the conflicts we're interested in, ect. I find it interesting that someone would be surprised that we have no popular movies that uplift the Chinese perspective on anything.
Personally, I think the Koreans should be pissed that they're in the same boat, except for they're actually allies of the US, and certainly suffered from the same sort of predations from the Japanese. But oh wait, that got whitewashed because then we could blame all the North Korean actions as Chinese inspired ones, yet again making them the bad guy and deflecting from Japanese responsibility.
This isn't surprising (even though it's gross).
However, it's really not relevant to this particular game.
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Well, historical fiction is not the sole realm of Hollywood. I was more (rhetorically) asking why the Chinese themselves never made such a movie.
And, to be honest, I think it's because their perspective on this atrocity is fundamentally different as the people who were subject to it. I don't think there is any room for "shades of gray" when you are the one being massacred. I think that movies like Letters from Iwo Jima or Midway come from a mindset that is fundamentally American. While the Japanese did commit war crimes against us (and we against them undoubtedly), those crimes were not on the level of "wholesale degradation of your entire country and slaughter of 25 million people."
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@mietze
I might be wrong, but I think the upcoming Mulan live action movie will actually be the first major Hollywood production from a Chinese perspective ever made?@juneko said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:
Well, historical fiction is not the sole realm of Hollywood. I was more (rhetorically) asking why the Chinese themselves never made such a movie.
It's my impression the Chinese State does not want people to pay too much attention to that period of Chinese history. They much prefer movies about historical china.
What is obvious to you may not be obvious to me and vice versa.
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@Groth said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:
@mietze
I might be wrong, but I think the upcoming Mulan live action movie will actually be the first major Hollywood production from a Chinese perspective ever made?@juneko said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:
Well, historical fiction is not the sole realm of Hollywood. I was more (rhetorically) asking why the Chinese themselves never made such a movie.
It's my impression the Chinese State does not want people to pay too much attention to that period of Chinese history. They much prefer movies about historical china.
That's about as ludicrous as saying that Hollywood doesn't make movies from the perspective of Nazis because they don't want you to pay attention to that period of European history.
China never produces movies like Letters from Iwo Jima because you don't just make movies glorifying the military that slaughtered millions of your people. Had to just spell it out for you.
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I am familiar with the terrain of Chinese historical dramas and I can tell you that dramas about the Sino-Japanese War are very popular. The trend these days is Tang/Ming dynasty, but in the early 2000s it was all about the War of Resistance.
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@marsmrsmars said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:
That's about as ludicrous as saying that Hollywood doesn't make movies from the perspective of Nazis because they don't want you to pay attention to that period of European history.
Both Hollywood and the German film industry has made lots of movies which depict the Nazi german perspective. You might be familiar with some famous ones like Schindler's List, Sophie's Choice, Das Boot or Der Untergang but honestly I have no idea what either of you are even trying to say anymore.
What is obvious to you may not be obvious to me and vice versa.
