@Groth You completely miss the point yet again by saying "worshipping Hirohito is okay because we don't even know if the Rape of Nanking happened yet!"

Would it be okay if someone played someone who really loves Hitler because the lore dictates that Hitler never rose to power and never initiated the holocaust?

No.

No it wouldn't.

This isn't a matter of in-character involvement in warcrimes or in-character thoughts on that, it's a matter of OOC perspective with the knowledge we as human beings hold today.

I already said that I thought that the admins were doing a pretty good job. You are simply a contrarian and have been contrarian the entire time, trying to play devil's advocate for characters worshipping what is basically the parallel of Adolf Hitler in Asia. Me disagreeing with your inane arguments and pedantic nitpicks is not me arguing against the staff. It's me arguing against you.

Long given up on riding the crazy train.

@faraday I understand that after rereading it. The original post was devoid of that context, though, at least from my perspective, so it was a little infuriating to read.

@Kestrel I do, and it's been nice so far. The thread doesn't really reflect on the game itself, arguing with people who aren't at all representing the actual administration's views on the issues in question don't really change my view of the game. While I do wish that people understood that worshipping Hirohito is pretty much the same as the leader worship of Hitler, I don't expect that to change any time soon in a eurocentric world.

Shooting fascists and bombing nazis sounds pretty cool, but this MUSH has a weird issue with racism against asian people.

The most obvious of which is Jiayi's 'theme song' that you can find here.
https://savageskies.aresmush.com/char/Jiayi

But also, there's policy against playing ex-nazis etc but the admins have allowed people to play former Imperial Japanese soldiers, ones who have actually participated (although benevolently, according to their RP hooks) in the occupations across Asia.
https://savageskies.aresmush.com/char/Kazuko

I guess you can chalk that up to ignorance of the region's history, but by the current year in the MUSH the massacre of Nanjing must have happened already, or it just wasn't acknowledged. If it did not happen in the lore of this setting, then you can point to really any other extreme war crimes committed by the Imperial Japanese forces who were perfectly aligned with Nazi Germany at the time.

Not only that, but the character in question, Kazuko, is a devout Monarchist, but apparently has 'nothing but contempt for fascism' and that 'Adherents of communist or democratic ideals will find her a steadfast (though unfailingly polite) opponent in debate.'

Why the administration would allow such a character that actively argues against democratic ideals and praises their war crime-encouraging, mass-murdering, mass-raping, ethnic cleansing Emperor is beyond me.

@faraday said in The Savage Skies:

@bear_necessities said in The Savage Skies:

the idea that I have to go through EVERYBODY'S wiki page on a daily basis and click all their links and make sure they aren't being stupid/racist/whatever is EXHAUSTING.

Seriously. If something is offensive, report it.

Forgive me if I'm missing something, but I don't get how an ex-navy pilot with a specific RP hook of being benevolent toward non-Japanese people is racist? Should the game ban all Japanese characters?

Japanese characters who were part of their mass-murdering military, praising their murderous Emperor, arguing against democracy in favor for that Emperor? Yes. Again, there's an obvious restriction against ex-nazi characters in the character generation section. Imperial Japan was nearly synonymous with Nazi Germany.

@krmbm said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

So, do we all agree that @GirlCalledBlu and @Seraphim73 probably aren't racists just 'cause their pretendy funtime world that they made doesn't address all the things ever?

No one ever said they were.

@faraday To judge that it was "just as bad" or not is in bad faith. You would not be saying these things if you researched what the Rape of Nanking was. Even the Nazis took issue with it.

I see that the main theme here is simply mischaracterization of issues put forth, rather than honest engagement with those issues. I didn't ask for them to alt-history every bad thing that anyone ever did @bear_necessities , in fact I think doing so lessens the impact of 'fighting fascism' as the game advertised. However, when a game bans ex-Nazi characters, I assume that applies to all grotesque and outright evil regimes of the time period, who were also in alliance with said Nazis.

I think you're projecting your own issues with banning these things onto this thread, since the administrators have multiple rules in place against all the things that you seem to take an issue with banning.

Pointing out issues with a game regarding racism does not mean someone is accusing the game administration team.

Wrong racial feels? Where'd you get that? Or did you just make that up to accentuate the absurdity of your feigned outrage?

@Autumn While I'm fine with exploring defectors and such, I don't think the rules of the game are made with the character's involvement or knowledge of atrocities in mind. I think the rules are made with the modern knowledge of atrocities in mind, which is why it is banned.

Think about it-- obviously an ex-Nazi character wouldn't be accepted simply because they think that Hitler could do no harm and is actually blameless of any atrocities committed by Nazi Germany. So, why would that be a defense for someone who worships Hirohito?

@mietze said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

I'm guessing there might be some of that at work here with the Japanese military PC--either they weren't super aware of or assumed that too might have been given some softening by the alternative history view about Hirohito.

I don't think putting an alternate-history lore that says that Nazis didn't do Nazi things makes playing a Nazi any better from a third person perspective.

@mietze said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

... and given the huge change to women's rights and social status I'm not really certain that war rape is a strategy in-game either on any side.

And I don't think that just because it didn't happen in the lore doesn't make it any better. There's a good reason why the admins decided to completely write out Hitler & Co. but still ban fascist/Nazi characters. Even if it was smoothed over in some alternate-history timeline, playing the would-be perpetrator of war crimes is in very poor taste.

I think the admins are taking a pretty good approach to this. I also think that there's an odd amount of people who are trying to say that Hirohito wasn't actually all that bad, but that's just how anonymous forums are, I guess.

@Groth said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

@mietze
I might be wrong, but I think the upcoming Mulan live action movie will actually be the first major Hollywood production from a Chinese perspective ever made?

@juneko said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

Well, historical fiction is not the sole realm of Hollywood. I was more (rhetorically) asking why the Chinese themselves never made such a movie.

It's my impression the Chinese State does not want people to pay too much attention to that period of Chinese history. They much prefer movies about historical china.

That's about as ludicrous as saying that Hollywood doesn't make movies from the perspective of Nazis because they don't want you to pay attention to that period of European history.

China never produces movies like Letters from Iwo Jima because you don't just make movies glorifying the military that slaughtered millions of your people. Had to just spell it out for you.

@Arkandel said in PB 'realism':

Since we're discussing PBs in general lately here's a question from me.

When you pick PBs do you care about 'realism' or do you go for the general fit between the picture/artwork's looks and your character?

Generally I either get inspired to make a character based off of a PB's picture or artwork, or I find something particularly fitting after the fact. If it doesn't click, I just do not use a PB.

And when you see others using a specific type of PB does that influence your responses if there is a perceived discrepancy?

Even though I am picky about what PBs I use myself, I don't really look at other peoples' PBs that much. Generally I get a mind's-eye thought of what each character looks like, but I am impressed when their PB lines up with what I thought originally.

@Derp said in PB 'realism':

@tek said in PB 'realism':

I won't play with someone with an anime pb. Full stop.

This, but fucking chibi.

#SorryNotSorry

@Ominous said in PB 'realism':

My reply to all this hate of the anime PBs:

I'm fine with art PBs, but if the art looks like it's just a still from some show then it gives me weird vibes. If I were to ever see a chibi PB, I'd probably not even try to make up an excuse to leave. That's just weird.

@TiredEwok said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

Trying to get the thread back on topic:

The game is a lot of fun. I have a couple alts already, and a third in CG. The theme scratches several itches of mine (like how I've been wanting to RP as a Sky Captain-inspired pilot character) and, at its core, is enough to pick up enough to make getting into RP easy.

Diesel-punk (is that the correct term for this sort of setting?) is a really cool genre and I wish there were more games of it. This game does do a pretty good job of it, too.

Long given up on riding the crazy train.

@faraday I understand that after rereading it. The original post was devoid of that context, though, at least from my perspective, so it was a little infuriating to read.

@Kestrel I do, and it's been nice so far. The thread doesn't really reflect on the game itself, arguing with people who aren't at all representing the actual administration's views on the issues in question don't really change my view of the game. While I do wish that people understood that worshipping Hirohito is pretty much the same as the leader worship of Hitler, I don't expect that to change any time soon in a eurocentric world.

@Groth You completely miss the point yet again by saying "worshipping Hirohito is okay because we don't even know if the Rape of Nanking happened yet!"

Would it be okay if someone played someone who really loves Hitler because the lore dictates that Hitler never rose to power and never initiated the holocaust?

No.

No it wouldn't.

This isn't a matter of in-character involvement in warcrimes or in-character thoughts on that, it's a matter of OOC perspective with the knowledge we as human beings hold today.

I already said that I thought that the admins were doing a pretty good job. You are simply a contrarian and have been contrarian the entire time, trying to play devil's advocate for characters worshipping what is basically the parallel of Adolf Hitler in Asia. Me disagreeing with your inane arguments and pedantic nitpicks is not me arguing against the staff. It's me arguing against you.

@Groth said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

... I have no idea what either of you are even trying to say anymore.

that's been apparent from the very start

@Groth said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

@mietze
I might be wrong, but I think the upcoming Mulan live action movie will actually be the first major Hollywood production from a Chinese perspective ever made?

@juneko said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

Well, historical fiction is not the sole realm of Hollywood. I was more (rhetorically) asking why the Chinese themselves never made such a movie.

It's my impression the Chinese State does not want people to pay too much attention to that period of Chinese history. They much prefer movies about historical china.

That's about as ludicrous as saying that Hollywood doesn't make movies from the perspective of Nazis because they don't want you to pay attention to that period of European history.

China never produces movies like Letters from Iwo Jima because you don't just make movies glorifying the military that slaughtered millions of your people. Had to just spell it out for you.

@Groth said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

@marsmrsmars said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

... so they were bombing innocents, instead of beheading them? Phew. Dodged a bullet with that one, I guess.

If you're not comfortable with characters associated with a force that bombed civilians, you're going to have a really hard time with any airman or woman who comes from any WW2 participant nation.

Ah, that makes it all better. Good to see where you stand on things.

@Groth said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

@juneko said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

As a member of the Imperial Japanese Army, this character was (without a doubt) a participant in the crimes that were committed in China.

The character in question is a former member of the Imperial Japanese Navy Airservice

... so they were bombing innocents, instead of beheading them? Phew. Dodged a bullet with that one, I guess.

@Groth said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

I'm not seeing people express the idea that Hirohito wasn't actually all that bad as much as I see the expression of the idea that the characters wouldn't be aware that Hirohito was actually that bad.

Really?

@lordbelh said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

Furthermore, clearly while the character worships the Emperor, she blames the higher ups in the military for the actions of Imperial Japan at present. We can argue how much blame Hirohito deserves (seems a decent amount), but that's really besides the point.

@faraday said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

I think @Autumn raises a valid point about cultural bias/perspective/whatever, because on reflection, in America we (generally as a society) really don't equate the Imperial Japanese as being "just as bad" as the Nazis. There were war crimes, sure, but I don't think we generally view them as being in the same league. In fact, I'd say that equivalency would be frowned upon here as calling back to the anti-Japanese sentiment that led to Manzanar and other badness.

@Seraphim73 said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

As to the question of Japanese military characters, we've been very careful to ensure that those who have been approved are not aligned with the military forces who are instigating the war crimes in China and Korea (and would be responsible for other ones elsewhere later in history). There is definitely some nuance and question (from what I have read) about how directly involved in all of that Emperor Hirohito was, but I agree that we need to be careful -- probably more careful than we have been in the past.

@mietze said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

I'm guessing there might be some of that at work here with the Japanese military PC--either they weren't super aware of or assumed that too might have been given some softening by the alternative history view about Hirohito.

I don't think putting an alternate-history lore that says that Nazis didn't do Nazi things makes playing a Nazi any better from a third person perspective.

@mietze said in The Savage Skies - Discussion Thread:

... and given the huge change to women's rights and social status I'm not really certain that war rape is a strategy in-game either on any side.

And I don't think that just because it didn't happen in the lore doesn't make it any better. There's a good reason why the admins decided to completely write out Hitler & Co. but still ban fascist/Nazi characters. Even if it was smoothed over in some alternate-history timeline, playing the would-be perpetrator of war crimes is in very poor taste.

I think the admins are taking a pretty good approach to this. I also think that there's an odd amount of people who are trying to say that Hirohito wasn't actually all that bad, but that's just how anonymous forums are, I guess.