Tips for not wearing out your welcome

[A. B.]

The thing is, I don't KNOW when I'm doing something wrong. I might be nervously wondering if I'm doing something wrong, but by now that's my permanent state all the time when I'm saying anything at all in any kind of chat thing, hence it doesn't tell me anything. (In fact being in such a yammering state of nerves is probably half the reason why I end up getting into a state in chats and being thrown out as an undesirable. It's a horrible vicious circle. Hence why it would have been a really big step forward if I could have made it up with Spirit Lake.) And what happened in Spirit Lake indicates that I won't know until I suddenly get thrown out. I don't know what to do.

I know, I know, unpaid counsellors. But since we're already talking about it.

Re characters - hm, that's promising, then. Thank you for that, you two. Now I just need a reason for my character to be sobbing hysterically. Any ideas? I know, I know, make up your own ideas, you lazy devil. ;-D

[Pyrephox]

Can I, in all seriousness, suggest reaching out to a professional therapist about getting help for your struggles? Because you're not handling it well, and it's not a game's job, or the staff's job, or any other person's job, to give you your 'really big step forward'. Take a break, get some help recognizing and working on social situations, then come back to games when you've got some strategies that you can practice.

[A. B.]

Not in position to or would.

[Groth]

@Derp said in Spirit Lake - Discussion:

That was your choice. As was the other thing that got you banned, that you now wanna fight about?

Not a good look. And definitely not a winning strategy. You're doing yourself no favors here really.

I would just let it go. You basically just used the mu-equivalent of the 'Well she was asking for it by wearing that skirt' defense for your (ongoing) bad behavior. Not a way to win friends or influence people, man.

What do you mean now want to fight about? I don't know what thread you've been reading but in the thread I've been reading AB has only talked about the actual ban in one post and everything else has been them attempting to explain themselves with little success.

Being upset about being banned is fine, being upset about not feeling understood is fine, using MSB as the place to communicate for lack of better options is also fine. Now as it happens if you're visibly upset on MSB, then the locals will descend on you like a swarm of piranhas because that's been the MSB culture ever since it was created.

From a strategical perspective, complaining about your ban after it happens is never going to help you, regardless if you agree or not they presumably banned you for a reason and that reason will be fresh on their minds. If you want to play on that particular game your best bet is to wait a few months and ask for a second chance.

In terms of avoiding getting banned in general, just remember that a MUSH is just a place for people that want to have fun role-playing together. Don't make the OOC environment weird and uncomfortable, avoid being excessively intense or drag politics in where they don't belong or harass people. Focus on the character you want to play and the stories you want to create together with the other players and you shouldn't have any problems being accepted. Don't talk about your RL issues because a lot of your fellow players are on the MUSH to avoid their RL issues.

[mietze]

When someone tells you that you are unwelcome in one space to the point you are forcibly removed from it, it really is never a good idea to try to get around that by utilizing another platform to try to continue to engage with them. If you unwisely attempt to engage with them elsewhere, rather than expecting them to be polite "in public" and not disclose why they didn't want contact with you, you should probably expect that they may feel creeped out and they may react with public disclosure and ask you to leave them alone there as well.

If you are banned, leave the people who banned you alone.

And if anyone is receiving unwelcome messages from someone that they've asked to leave them alone here, please let any moderator know. And to anyone who thinks it's a good idea to argue with someone privately here after they have asked you to not contact them personally, if you do that you're probably going to get banned here too.

[A. B.]

I was just trying to contact them (a week or two later) to apologise and say that the RL issues responsible had now subsided and I'd got my head back together and would they consider giving me a second chance, and I'd avoid posting in the OOC discussion channel at all just to be sure. And I came here to do it only because Spirit Lake happens to have one and only one line of contact and that's the game itself.
I really think that's reasonable enough.

As for "arguing privately with someone who has asked you not to contact them personally", you got that back to front, if you mean what I think you mean - I started by sending Tat a private message, and then when there was no response at all I posted on here to ask if they'd got it, and it was after that that they posted on here saying not to and I haven't sent them any more. I wouldn't do that.

[mietze]

And yes, I am aware that it's not fair for people who do not recognize social cues and who have a tendency towards behaviors that make others uncomfortable do not get allowances for that on many games. If things were fair there would be mitigations perhaps that would give some people allowances for these types of behavior if they are something that they can't control, or perhaps there might be ways that that behavior could be totally muted so it doesn't affect anyone else but they could still play ICly.

There's not a lot of places though that are going to do that, or where it's possible to do that, though some staff and games are more able to do a lot of trellising and handholding than others in that regard.

There's not an easy answer. You could that the strategy of limiting your use of anything that gets you into trouble. (Public channel, OOC communication, ect) Unfortunately that's difficult to do on a lot of places but you could try that. If you can find someone who is willing to help set boundaries and be willing to work with you so that you can double check with them or they have your permission to page you with a "you're going too far/being inappropriate", then that might work, but that also is a tall order. But I think particularly now with the stress levels of everyone so high, there's less of that to go around.

But learning to choose to respect staff or a player telling you "stop with X behavior" can really help. It is easier said than done if it's something you struggle with, but it also isn't something you can force other people to help you with.

[Groth]

@A-B said in Spirit Lake - Discussion:

The thing is, I don't KNOW when I'm doing something wrong. I might be nervously wondering if I'm doing something wrong, but by now that's my permanent state all the time when I'm saying anything at all in any kind of chat thing, hence it doesn't tell me anything. (In fact being in such a yammering state of nerves is probably half the reason why I end up getting into a state in chats and being thrown out as an undesirable.

If this is something that happens to you with any kind of regularity it's a sign that what you need first and foremost is to find an ability to take a step back and dial yourself a notch down. Step away from the keyboard and take a walk around your apartment, regain your perspective.

Chances are you're trying too hard, that you're treating places like Spirit Lake as something they were never intended to be. You don't need to become a master of reading between the lines of human communication if you just stick to using the chat for its intended purpose rather then hoping to be 'successful'.

[Ominous]

@Groth said in Spirit Lake - Discussion:

What do you mean now want to fight about? I don't know what thread you've been reading but in the thread I've been reading AB has only talked about the actual ban in one post and everything else has been them attempting to explain themselves with little success.

I think @Derp was referring to that one post, because it came across as a bit 'I want to fight about this.'

From a strategical perspective, complaining about your ban after it happens is never going to help you, regardless if you agree or not they presumably banned you for a reason and that reason will be fresh on their minds. If you want to play on that particular game your best bet is to wait a few months and ask for a second chance.

I would make clear that @A-B is in no way entitled to an appeal or a reconsideration, and, if they do reach back out to Spirit Lake's staff in a few months, they should expect a 'No' reply and, if they are unable to accept a 'No' reply, they should not reach out.

[mietze]

@A-B I am glad to hear that you're going to respect an ask here of you not contacting them. Unfortunately some people who use other platforms to make contact with people after they've been banned do /not/ respect that.

I think in the future if someone is not responding to you, it's better to leave them alone, rather than making it seem like you're chasing them down, which is nearly always going to make someone defensive, especially if your last contact was not a pleasant one and they had to remove you from somewhere.

No one owes you a private message back, even if you would very much like one. And if you rush it, the likelihood of an outcome in your favor decreases.

[Groth]

@Ominous said in Spirit Lake - Discussion:

I would make clear that @A-B is in no way entitled to an appeal or a reconsideration, and, if they do reach back out to Spirit Lake's staff in a few months, they should expect a 'No' reply and, if they are unable to accept a 'No' reply, they should not reach out.

That is true and while we're making excessively clear clarifications, I suppose we could make clear this goes for any kind of asking. You always need to be able to accept the answer 'No'.

[A. B.]

@mietze said in Spirit Lake - Discussion:

But learning to choose to respect staff or a player telling you "stop with X behavior" can really help. It is easier said than done if it's something you struggle with, but it also isn't something you can force other people to help you with.

I wasn't told, that's the thing. I was worrying about something to do with RPing, whether I could manage what seemed to be required, and we had a bit of a discussion about it, and because I was on edge I went on and on wittering about it, and wondering nervously whether they were getting impatient but as I said that's my permanent state in chats at all times by now hence it told me nothing, and they suddenly threw me out. Thinking about it, though, that doesn't usually happen. Most of the times I've got into trouble somewhere I have at least got some warning. This was exceptional. No need to panic to quite that extent.

No one owes you a private message back, even if you would very much like
one. And if you rush it, the likelihood of an outcome in your favor decreases.

In my defence, I waited two days. And I could see when I checked it that Tat had been on frequently since then, and just wondered - since there was no reaction at all - if something had gone wrong with the works and they hadn't got it. It's impossible to know what any particular site or person is in the habit of considering to be "rushing it".

[Tinuviel]

If this is what it was like having you on a game, I'd probably ban you too.

[mietze]

Also, I am thinking the topic of how to avoid banning in general due to behavior is porbably not topical to this thread. I'm in the middle of cooking dinner right now but it might get split off/moved.

[A. B.]

Tinuviel - Elucidate?

Mietze - Yes, I was thinking that, too, but didn't really know what to do about it. Thanks.

[Tinuviel]

@A-B said in Spirit Lake - Discussion:

Tinuviel - Elucidate?

You just keep going and going and going... You've been told "no" by @Tat... and yet you're still fuckin' going.

[Groth]

@A-B said in Spirit Lake - Discussion:

I wasn't told, that's the thing. I was worrying about something to do with RPing, whether I could manage what seemed to be required, and we had a bit of a discussion about it, and because I was on edge I went on and on wittering about it, and wondering nervously whether they were getting impatient but as I said that's my permanent state in chats at all times by now hence it told me nothing, and they suddenly threw me out.

So if this had anything to do with the rules of the game. I can tell you that no game admin particularly wants to get entangled into arguments about technicalities because it's not helpful, they don't want to give anyone the impression they've managed to get admin approval for some sort of undesirable behavior.

If you want to do some specific thing you can usually get an answer about if that specific thing is allowed or not and if you want someone to explain the intentions of the game they'll usually be happy to do that. However no one is going to want to help you clarify perfectly sharp borders because they don't exist and people asking for them are usually up to trouble.

[A. B.]

@Tinuviel - We've moved on from that, I'm not talking to the Spirit Lake mods, I'm trying to get advice from people about whether there's any way to make it less likely to happen over and over again in other things. Admittedly the original incident keeps coming up as an example.

@Groth - It's more that the game seemed very heavy on analysing characters' feelings and describing them in minute detail and I struggle with that, it embarrasses me and I don't know what to say, not when there's nothing happening except feelings, and we were discussing how much of that was really necessary and advice about ways of doing it, quite productively at first. But I got despondent and wailed a bit (as I say, I had other things on my mind at the time and should never have been there, only I was that desperate for something to take my mind off things).

[Groth]

@A-B said in Spirit Lake - Discussion:

@Groth - It's more that the game seemed very heavy on analysing characters' feelings and describing them in minute detail and I struggle with that, it embarrasses me and I don't know what to say, not when there's nothing happening except feelings, and we were discussing how much of that was really necessary and advice about ways of doing it, quite productively at first. But I got despondent and wailed a bit (as I say, I had other things on my mind at the time and should never have been there, only I was that desperate for something to take my mind off things).

My solution to that problem is to mostly play sociopaths. I'm not well equipped to describe many common emotional reactions so I play characters which don't have them.

[ZombieGenesis]

Don't be confrontational at the first sign of criticism. I'm not saying you have to agree with them but understand the difference between having a discussion and starting a fight. If you don't agree with whatever the situation is, take a breath. Try to see it from the other side. Even if you don't agree with it, try to see how they might see it that way. And then, calmly, discuss the situation with them.

Raging at a staffer and saying "F YOU! You're ruining my character concept!" because they deny something in your application is not going to get you closer to either getting that thing or getting approved in general. In fact, not only are you further from getting that thing but you're one step closer to being removed from the game entirely.

In short, just be excellent to each other.