Jul 2, 2020, 12:49 AM
@Kestrel Cool, so incivility is literally 'disagree with someone (EDIT: POC ONLY OF COURSE) in this topic.' We've come far.
Diversity Representation in MU*ing
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@Kestrel Cool, so incivility is literally 'disagree with someone (EDIT: POC ONLY OF COURSE) in this topic.' We've come far.
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@bored said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
@Kestrel Cool, so incivility is literally 'disagree with someone (EDIT: POC ONLY OF COURSE) in this topic.' We've come far.
I will leave it to someone else to blacksplain what whitesplaining means.
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@Kestrel I wait with the most bated of breath.
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Well, as the person that indicated the lack of civility, I was referring to the rather swift ratcheting of apparent tension between the participants.
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I have no issue talking to anyone who wants to have a genuine discussion or who raises genuine concerns. I however have pretty much no real patience for what I can only describe as venting at people with no actual aim or goal and implications that "no, it is in fact everyone else who is wrong and being uncivil".
Like, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of us are over 30, and we're in a goddamned writing medium. You can't say "i'm not pissed" while making frothingly pissed off posts lashing out at people and showing literally zero desire to actually engage with what they're saying beyond your ability to vent at them on your own terms.
I legit could care less about this "oh, I'm actually being quite civil, the fact that I'm popping off at people is just your opinion. As you can see, by my using this clearly civil tone, it negates the fact that I'm approaching people with literally the least respect possible".
Like dude, this isn't Facebook, you can't say you're being civil while very obviously not even being remotely civil. We're all here, we can all read, you can't handwave shit. You're either being civil or you aren't, and you aren't, you can't speak it into existence. So I have no desire to engage with this childish nonsense. Anyone who has approached me like an adult human being in this thread has gotten the same in return. I'm not entertaining this "oh yeah I'm gonna be a disrespectful asshole and if you don't like it then fuck you" nonsense.
Like if you're gonna be a whole ass then be a whole ass, but at least own it and stop trying to act like you popping off is something I or anyone else needs to sit here and respect as if you're just sitting there calmly and respectfully expressing your point of view, when literally goddamned everyone can see that you aren't.
That's the last thing I have to say on it. If you can't chill and be an adult I'm just gonna block you and be done with it. There's too many people in this hobby who are like fucking 40 and still acting like we're in high school. I used to pop off and be a piece of shit on WORA because I was an immature 25 year old with a bunch of goddamned psychological issues. So when people who are usually freaking twice my age come at me as literally anything less than an adult, I'm not going to sit here and entertain them as if the behavior is normal.
So, as far as @bored goes, either chill and act your age, or don't expect to be addressed anymore. I'm not gonna sit here and be civil with someone who can't do anyone else the same courtesy. And if you're gonna pull that "ohoho ad hominem I win" shit on me, tough titties I could care less. If you come at me with a certain kind of energy and don't have the self-awareness to understand the social consequences of your own actions, I quite honestly don't know what to say to you.
I'm not gonna sit here and teach an adult who is probably twice my age proper social conduct because they felt the need to rush to the aid of some dude making strawman arguments and got mad about it for reasons far beyond my capacity to understand.
Anyway I'm gonna yeet myself out of this discussion for a few hours. I'll be back later when presumably graves have been dug deep enough for me not to care anymore.
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@HelloProject said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
I have no issue talking to anyone who wants to have a genuine discussion or who raises genuine concerns. I however have pretty much no real patience for what I can only describe as venting at people with no actual aim or goal and implications that "no, it is in fact everyone else who is wrong and being uncivil".
I didn't call anyone uncvil. It's actually bizarre to me that you've jumped to that conclusion and I thought I was trying to de-escalate with the "if you meant this other thing, OK." If you replied "yes I meant that other thing, you misunderstood me" we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
Like, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of us are over 30, and we're in a goddamned writing medium. You can't say "i'm not pissed" while making frothingly pissed off posts lashing out at people and showing literally zero desire to actually engage with what they're saying beyond your ability to vent at them on your own terms.
I'd ask what you think is actually 'frothing' but I think its pretty pointless. People here have seen me froth, though. If this is me rabid with hatred, I am seriously off my fucking game.
Like dude, this isn't Facebook,
Is it twitter? I'm confused.
That's the last thing I have to say on it. If you can't chill and be an adult I'm just gonna block you and be done with it.
Bye.
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@bored said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
@HelloProject said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
I have no issue talking to anyone who wants to have a genuine discussion or who raises genuine concerns. I however have pretty much no real patience for what I can only describe as venting at people with no actual aim or goal and implications that "no, it is in fact everyone else who is wrong and being uncivil".
I didn't call anyone uncvil. It's actually bizarre to me that you've jumped to that conclusion and I thought I was trying to de-escalate with the "if you meant this other thing, OK." If you replied "yes I meant that other thing, you misunderstood me" we wouldn't even be having this conversation.
Like, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of us are over 30, and we're in a goddamned writing medium. You can't say "i'm not pissed" while making frothingly pissed off posts lashing out at people and showing literally zero desire to actually engage with what they're saying beyond your ability to vent at them on your own terms.
I'd ask what you think is actually 'frothing' but I think its pretty pointless. People here have seen me froth, though. If this is me rabid with hatred, I am seriously off my fucking game.
Like dude, this isn't Facebook,
Is it twitter? I'm confused.
That's the last thing I have to say on it. If you can't chill and be an adult I'm just gonna block you and be done with it.
Bye.
Okay cool, blocked. Glad we could clear up that this is a permanent behavior thing.
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Since I was mentioned, iirc HP understood it was bs behavior on the caller-out's part when the situation was described? I am barely peeking in at the moment because dental ow ow ow and a sudden depressive spiral, though, so... I really don't want to dig for it. It's somewhere... <hand flappies> ...back there in the thread. I might be misremembering, but the bits of my brain that are currently functioning lean 70% in that direction, anyway.
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@bored said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
@HelloProject It's not clear if your'e arguing only with @TheBigD or editorializing on the thread, but
Like, so far I keep hearing all of these anecdotes about how the SJW staff came at the poor innocent people playing a POC, but I haven't seen a single receipt, log of the character being played, MU name, or hell even a goddamned app to let people take a look at anything. It's just people saying shit in the midst of making what sounds a hell of a lot like a bad faith argument. In general I'm not questioning anyone who seems to be making their argument in good faith, but when people come making straw arguments and acting like there's packs of roving nonbinary bandits coming after them if they even remotely step out of line, I'm going to go "okay so where's the receipts".
Bolds mine. All of those look very plural, very general, very whole-thread wide-net, and a weasel clause at the end doesn't really change that. If that's not the intent, OK. But that's not how the post read to me.
Your personal stance/walking anything back/etc isn't the point, the issue is whether or not you think this shit is part of the discourse or not. You brought it into the discourse. So did @Pandora, who was part of that exchange. When people think it's maybe not worth the drama to play POC/outside their sexuality, stuff like this is why (And, since you brought up Cirno, it's really hard to tell 'legit' concern from the weaponized kind. He might be a rare example, but he had a whole lot of this forum fooled, using the same language you are).
Did you seriously tag me into a "You POC are the problem" post? Please don't. I prefer to make my own negativity, this kind of energy is not my speed.
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@Kestrel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
I will leave it to someone else to blacksplain what whitesplaining means.
My brain be ever more dysfunctional for each passing year but as the premier x-plainer on the forum I'll take a stab at analyzing this.
wiktionary defines 'whitesplaining' as
Verb
whitesplain (third-person singular simple present whitesplains, present participle whitesplaining, simple past and past participle whitesplained)
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(colloquial, derogatory, chiefly Internet) To explain (something) condescendingly to one who is not white, especially regarding race relations or minority behavior, presuming the listener's inferior understanding because of their race.It seems to me HelloProject made a long post outlining their thoughts and opinions on white people playing black and POC characters on both MU* and television and towards the end made the connection that anecdotes without any receipt, log, MU* name or character app 'sounds' a lot like a bad faith argument.
Bored then started an argument that some of the anecdotes did have receipts and accused HelloProject of policing sexuality. Which to me seems like something of a miscommunication because the paragraph quoted was specifically about POC and not sexuality and specifically about anecdotes without receipts.
HelloProject responded in confusion because the paragraph written and the response didn't appear to match. Bored doubled down on his interpretation and then the conversation decomposed into this whole 'uncivil' thing.
There's probably a word for doubling down on a misunderstanding until it becomes a slapfight but based on Wiktionary I don't think 'whitesplain' is the right one.
What is obvious to you may not be obvious to me and vice versa.
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@Groth said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
There's probably a word for doubling down on a misunderstanding until it becomes a slapfight but based on Wiktionary I don't think 'whitesplain' is the right one.
It's called "to Tinuviel."
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I think that there have been certain people who have come into this thread for the last few weeks projecting, without any actual intention of contributing to the discussion, asking a genuine question, or learning anything. It's the same kind of stuff I hear and see people do all the time irl and on Facebook and stuff (back before I made Facebook less cancerous by having literally no locals or family members on it). At this point it's just ridiculously transparent when someone wants to vent and when they want to have a genuine discussion, and they get really mad when you don't want to take the poorly constructed bait and proceed to lash out.
I am not the type of person who is going to be pissed at a white person for asking me a dumb question if that question seems genuinely sincere to me. Hell I in fact once was in a racial discussion where i was like, "listen, you can all ask me whatever questions you want and there won't be any judgement about it, because I'd rather you learn than keep it to yourself". And someone sincerely asked me if it's actually true that black people love grape juice, and why is that if it is true.
If someone asked me that question unprompted (meaning, if I didn't open the door for asking me stupid race questions), or if they asked it to me with a certain attitude or obvious tone, I would pop off like "okay, what the fuck". But this person asked me this question sincerely. It was a dumb as shit question, but it was sincere and I could tell they weren't trying to be combative or just fling microaggressions and shit. So I answered it and used it as an opportunity to explain a larger topic that her question was rooted in.
Someone might feel compelled to go "okay but how do you know". But it's like, I've literally gone through most of the years of my life being exposed to white people being aggressive or defensive about racial shit that is entirely unnecessary to even be pissed or angry about, and it's almost always because they don't understand what they're talking about, and have no desire to, and choose to simply double down in being angry about it.
This shit practically follows a script, it always goes down in the same way, I'm always approached with the same kind of energy by this kind of person. It's super obvious to the point that it's like, why would I bother sincerely engaging with someone who doesn't want to be engaged with beyond simply wanting to vent their anger at me and suck every ounce of energy I have just so that they can feel good when I ultimately get pissed off and fed up with them? The intellectually insincere arguments, the concern trolling, whatever you wanna call it.
Some people are better at hiding it than others, but it's still always the same. I think people who don't deal with it often probably don't recognize it as quickly, maybe it's less obvious. But I think people in this thread have been pretty quick to point out when someone is just kind of being an asshole. Nearly every person in this thread who has addressed me in some way has done so respectfully, and asked me sincere questions, and I did so right back.
Like, every time someone comes at this thread with aggression, they always tackle the same basic topics with the same level of aggression or outrage or whatever, and act as if every person who isn't a POC or LGBTQ or whatever would be helpless against the SJW scum. But their arguments are completely invalidated by the fact that the vast majority of the people in this thread are white and aren't acting as if the world is on fire, so why are these few people choosing to come in here doing so as if everyone who isn't acting like a whole ass is the one who is insane?
I hardly think MSB is a community typically focused on social justice and wokeness, so if the majority of white people or straight people or whatever aren't having any problems having a sincere discussion in this thread, I really don't think there's any need for someone to come in here acting like the sky is falling. That's what The Quartering's YouTube comments section is for.
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@HelloProject said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
And someone sincerely asked me if it's actually true that black people love grape juice, and why is that if it is true.
Wait, is that actually a stereotype? God, I've lived a sheltered life.
I really don't think there's any need for someone to come in here acting like the sky is falling. That's what The Quartering's YouTube comments section is for.
Is he the one who said the human species would die out because the new She-Ra was teaching women the extremely wrong idea that it's okay to not focus their beings on looking sexy to men?
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@GreenFlashlight said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
Wait, is that actually a stereotype? God, I've lived a sheltered life.
It was almost inescapable ten to twenty years ago. I haven't seen it as much recently, but I'm also white, so...
ETA: Dave Chappelle did a bit on the stereotype in particular. Slurs, obviously.
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@HelloProject said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
Like, every time someone comes at this thread with aggression, they always tackle the same basic topics with the same level of aggression or outrage or whatever, and act as if every person who isn't a POC or LGBTQ or whatever would be helpless against the SJW scum. But their arguments are completely invalidated by the fact that the vast majority of the people in this thread are white and aren't acting as if the world is on fire, so why are these few people choosing to come in here doing so as if everyone who isn't acting like a whole ass is the one who is insane?
Isn't the real question: why are you engaging with the person who seems insane to you?
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SparklesTheClown Creator Banned last edited by SparklesTheClown Jul 3, 2020, 12:22 AM Jul 3, 2020, 12:20 AM
@GreenFlashlight said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
@HelloProject said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
And someone sincerely asked me if it's actually true that black people love grape juice, and why is that if it is true.
Wait, is that actually a stereotype? God, I've lived a sheltered life.
It's a fairly common one, been around for a long time. What got lost to time is that the stereotype is actually grape "drink", or Kool-Aid. But the actual reason for the stereotype is that these things tend to be incredibly cheap to get, significantly cheaper than getting something like Welch's or some juice that isn't just literally sugar water. And, for this reason, a lot of underprivileged people grow up culturally drinking stuff like that. It's not because genetically they just love that stuff, it's because it was the option if you wanted something other than water.
I really don't think there's any need for someone to come in here acting like the sky is falling. That's what The Quartering's YouTube comments section is for.
Is he the one who said the human species would die out because the new She-Ra was teaching women the extremely wrong idea that it's okay to not focus their beings on looking sexy to men?
Yup.
But he doesn't get to enjoy She-Ra, so really it's his own self-imposed hell that he can stay in.
@Ganymede said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
@HelloProject said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
Like, every time someone comes at this thread with aggression, they always tackle the same basic topics with the same level of aggression or outrage or whatever, and act as if every person who isn't a POC or LGBTQ or whatever would be helpless against the SJW scum. But their arguments are completely invalidated by the fact that the vast majority of the people in this thread are white and aren't acting as if the world is on fire, so why are these few people choosing to come in here doing so as if everyone who isn't acting like a whole ass is the one who is insane?
Isn't the real question: why are you engaging with the person who seems insane to you?
Exactly. If you're already fully formed, cup overflowing, and know everything, then what do you want other than to vent? I don't even mind if someone is legitimately like "I don't understand why this is an issue", I in fact think that's happened in this very thread. But if everyone else is 100% wrong and insane then okay why are you here.
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@Groth said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
There's probably a word for doubling down on a misunderstanding until it becomes a slapfight but based on Wiktionary I don't think 'whitesplain' is the right one.
So you cherry-pick what they said, leave out the fact that they tagged POC not even remotely involved in what you claim was the misunderstanding (policing sexuality?), and come to the conclusion that there was no whiteplaining to see here.
'Kay.
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@Pandora said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:
So you cherry-pick what they said, leave out the fact that they tagged POC not even remotely involved in what you claim was the misunderstanding (policing sexuality?), and come to the conclusion that there was no whiteplaining to see here.
'Kay.
I honestly didn't grasp what that part of the argument was even supposed to be about.