Why no Star Trek games?
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No, I will not be playing along with your straw man.
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@Sunny said in Why no Star Trek games?:
@Paradox said in Why no Star Trek games?:
We can lie to ourselves and say it's about RP, but it really isn't. WE all want /something/ for our time.
I really don't think this is true.
Hmm. It's true, but not necessarily the way Paradox says.
If you make character advancement quite separate from RP-votes and such, people will still keep score with interest and enthusiasm. Especially if you let them see who earned the most this week, and total, etc.
We've been conditioned to love accumulating points. The points don't need to be redeemable for anything.
"... you'll find the story doesn’t end how you think, and the most important characters aren’t who you expect.” - Penny 40 to Derek, The Magicians S04E07 ‘The Side Effect’
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This has been my observation as well. There tends to be some kind of carrot for people, particularly in the 'science fiction' genre. I have read a lot of these posts (you can search through for Star Trek / Star Wars etc) and there tends to be a decent amount of circulation around some general core concepts that extend beyond 'just a place to play and RP'. If there is an available Sci-fi oriented game that is sheetless I would be most interested in finding it. @sunny may claim a strawman argument, but a lack of evidence to support this sheet less sci fi world would seem to indicate it doesn't exist. (Has it ever?)
Perhaps that is the attempt that should be made for Star Trek. A completely statless/sheetless game focused solely upon the RP.
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A game not being in existence right now is not evidence that they cannot or do not work. Baby's first RPG was a forum based Star Trek game that I played for 4 years. We had no stats, no sheets, no voting or tracking system. There were like 200 players for years. In my opinion, this was a successful game. In yours, apparently not because that specific game still doesn't exist 20 years later? So there's no conversation to be had here.
ETA: Google 'star trek online roleplay' -- several links on the first page are links to statless/diceless games that by our terms play by "full consent" rules. Besides the fact that the original premise I objected to was that "we" require more than just the roleplay. I even acknowledged that it's likely true for you -- just that it's not a universal truth for everyone. There are PLENTY of people for whom the roleplay IS actually the point.
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I'd like to try a consent-based game that isn't superheroes. I've noticed a lot of superhero conflicts are resolved effortlessly to make the PCs look cool, which to me undermines drama, but I have a theory that a genre less about power fantasies wouldn't be so prone to that kind of thing.
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If we look outside the world of MUs (it does exist, I promise!), Starbase 118, a play by email game, has been going for 25 years. And it has neither sheet (beyond character details) nor stats. Advancement through the ranks is one of the options, of course.
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@Sunny said in Why no Star Trek games?:
There are PLENTY of people for whom the roleplay IS actually the point.
I think this is why cosplay is successful too.
I think that Star Trek games are not popular these days because Star Trek doesn't seem to be as popular as it was back in the 90s. Although there are two current series, one is a throwback using old characters.
I think Star Trek requires a certain mindset which is difficult to hold onto right now. The idea of an ideal society for humanity seems a far-cry from what we have now. The idea of exploring the unknown and appreciating cultures is wonderful, but I think it lacks the same luster yester-years had.
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Everybody has something different they want out of a MU. XP/levels/skill advancement has long been the traditional 'carrot on a stick' in RPGs, but it is by no means the only option. Players can be motivated through prestige or rank, recognition (i.e. ooc achievements or in-game medals for achievement), exploration (discovering something new), in-game tallies (like the BSG kill boards), or ticking off boxes on quest lists, just to name a few. And yes, some of us just come for the RP.
Statless games may be pretty rare, but I think that has less to do with a burning need for advancement, and more because we've come to realize that the playground version of cops and robbers ("I got you!" "No you didn't!") doesn't work too great on internet games with strangers.
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Pern games have pretty much always been statless. Something like 15 years ago, my husband and I ran one with stats briefly, and it was pretty fun. I think Schmitt may also have run a couple that had stats. But, by and large, none of them were statted.
We all just worked stuff out via page - "Hey, my character is going to punch yours." "Okay, mine has a glass jaw, so you win." In 20 years of Pern gaming? I honestly have zero memories of ever having a playground fight about it. So going statless can totally work.
But the carrot was there in other means: shiny dragons and high rank.
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@Ifrit said in Why no Star Trek games?:
If we look outside the world of MUs (it does exist, I promise!), Starbase 118, a play by email game, has been going for 25 years. And it has neither sheet (beyond character details) nor stats. Advancement through the ranks is one of the options, of course.
30 seconds on The Googles for 'star trek discord roleplaying' also yielded this: https://disboard.org/servers/tag/star-trek
I mean, I skimmed and one of those has 'fapping' in the description but that's just the law of internet averages.
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@krmbm said in Why no Star Trek games?:
In 20 years of Pern gaming? I honestly have zero memories of ever having a playground fight about it. So going statless can totally work.
I don't discount your experiences, but mine have been polar opposite. I "grew up" on statless consent MUs, and I would never go back. Too much confrontation and drama. I think it probably depends on the player sub-community you're dealing with.
Comic games are also often consent, so I'm definitely not saying that it can't work. Just that I have my pet theory on why it seems to have fallen out of favor, and it has little to do with advancement.
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@faraday said in Why no Star Trek games?:
Comic games are also often consent, so I'm definitely not saying that it can't work. Just that I have my pet theory on why it seems to have fallen out of favor, and it has little to do with advancement.
Oh, yeah. No, never did superhero games. I would imagine that's a way different demographic. And much more prone to actual physical conflict. I guess I assume a Star Trek game would have more RP in common with Pern: mostly social with the occasional well-choreographed co-op battle sequence.
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The Pern community also frowned on people being overly power-pose-y and trying to come out the victor because they were the bestest toughest duder ever, so I think that had something to do with situations being easily resolved the way @krmbm relays.
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@Paradox said in Why no Star Trek games?:
How does a character 'level' in Star Trek? They attain rank & additional duties.
Does this have to be the case, though?
I mean, I will fully admit that I've never so much as seen a Star Trek RPG book so I'm fully talking out of my ass here and don't know the systems that exist at all, but it seems like there's so much more that could be done with Trek characters than just 'advance to the next rank'. Many of the fan favorites end up advancing to the next rank because they've figured out certain skills and developed talents and relationships unique among the crew. Or they stay in their exact positions and get put in charge of their own little tasks. Voyager had quite a bit of this. Not very many people actually 'levelled up' in the sense that they got to wear a new color of uniform, but there was plenty of character growth there.
Could Star Trek be run as a game with a more personal discovery / social conflict sort of deal? (Legit asking, I have no idea.) Lords and ladies seem to be a pretty common theme. Why not Lords and Ladies in space in a setting that most nerds know fairly in depth?
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Statless games may be pretty rare, but I think that has less to do with a burning need for advancement, and more because we've come to realize that the playground version of cops and robbers ("I got you!" "No you didn't!") doesn't work too great on internet games with strangers.
Sometimes it does, which is weird, but hey.
I just like a dice system because it's more fun for me.
I think one could run any type of game sheet and diceless, but I'm not sure you'd want to even with the most agreeable group of players.
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I think it ought not be the case -- what you said about show characters seldom advancing in rank.
Trek MUs have, as far as I know, generally been focused on the militaristic bit, with rules for rank advancement set in, and often set in wartime.
