The Celebrated Company of Mongrels
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Yeah. This is the Black Company game that I didn't know I needed.
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Exciting!
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One more quick peek, this time aaaaat
MAGIC
Overview: While the true nature and source of magic has been a hotly-debated subject, one thing most every scholar agrees on is that magic is a fundamental essence from outside of reality with which the Gods and other Powers That Be become manifest on this plane of existence. It is through them that it must be "filtered" before mortals can make any contact with it -- or else risk madness, mutation, death, or quite frequently all of the above...and not always in that particular order.
Magic is inherently chaotic, and breaks down the laws of the mundane world in its rawest form, mana: liquids become solid, light becomes sound, the boundaries between minds and/or bodies become weak or dissolve altogether -- there's an ancient tale of hubris told to any who have dared to work with mana about a town that tried to place a well over a raw manaspring, and how every single inhabitant became part of a massive storm cloud that still roams the world, raining psychic agony instead of water and absorbing those unfortunate enough to come too close to the Eye.
The Gods and Powers consume mana and then refine it within themselves, sustaining their own manifestations and empowering their followers. How this power works through them and how it can be used varies quite dramatically, but all require some form of bond with the deity or force in question and an alignment of will -- the ancient druids of the Greenheart, for example, had to zealously reject the trappings of society and strive to bring humans back to their beginnings as hunters and gatherers or else their supernatural connection to plants and animals would fail, while the Magi of the Unseen Star were required to insinuate themselves into worldly courts to try and guide them to peculiar destinies decided by visions granted by the Star. Try to prevent these bizarre events, and the Magi would suddenly find that their incantations were only babbled words.
The potency of any God or Power (and thus their gifts) depends entirely on how many followers are "pacted" to them and their divine purpose; it is said that slaughtering the cults during the Holiest Nights is truly how the Church of the Crimson God rose to ascendancy. In these troubled times, most devoted followers must keep their heads down, and worship is done with the utmost secrecy and care.
System: Magic is available to every character in the game as long as one of their Aspects reflects it (usually this is their High Concept, but not always) and they have bought the requisite power stunt.
Gods/Powers grant access to three of the eight Workings -- Evocation, Divination, Enchantment, Summoning, Alchemy, Warding, Transmutation, and Planewalking -- and players can choose one of the example Gods/Powers or come up with one of their own; the difference in how players portray each Working's source is largely in roleplay but can also reflect specialization in some domain. Once a God/Power is chosen, the character is considered a devotee and can spend a Fate point in a scene to have their deity/force power their spell instead of taking a Stress hit.
Alternatively, players can choose to be a Pactmaker (see below), and temporarily mix and match their three Workings, but do not have the option to have their spells empowered.
Example Practioners, the Pactmakers: It is said there is an exception to every rule, even the divine ones; the only people bold enough to say that openly, however, call themselves the Pactmakers -- but are more commonly sneered at as sorcerers, warlocks, or ironically and extremely derisively as the Pactbreakers. These pragmatic men and women are devotees to no God or Power, but forge temporary bonds with them in exchange for vows of a single deed or geas.
This gives them a remarkable flexibility and a reputation among the greater forces of the world as intermediaries between mortality and the divine, shrewd bargainers who are among the rare few that can traverse the wilds and ancient ruins unharmed and unchanged (at least, not permanently). Unsurprisingly, this is why the Celebrated Company of Mongrels offers them employment and protection; there is a coven of Pactmakers in every regiment, and every expeditionary force the Company sends into the wilderness includes at least one or more Pactmaker to arrange safe passage with any Power or old god or goddess they encounter.
It is whispered that the Pactmakers are all that remain of the Royal Alchemists once employed by the court centuries ago before the rise of the Church, and there is certainly no love lost between them -- Pactmakers are officially heretics, and any who are caught in the practice are condemned to death.
^_______^
(@_____@)
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Excuse me, @Wizz, as I go through your post and kind of elaborate my thought processes on it. Hopefully it helps you see how someone reads it and their thinking, so you can polish it more in the direction you want to take things.
@wizz said in The Celebrated Company of Mongrels:
One more quick peek, this time aaaaat
MAGIC
Ahhhh, magic systems - the thing I geek out the most over. Let's see what we got.
Overview: While the true nature and source of magic has been a hotly-debated subject, one thing most every scholar agrees on is that magic is a fundamental essence from outside of reality with which the Gods and other Powers That Be become manifest on this plane of existence. It is through them that it must be "filtered" before mortals can make any contact with it -- or else risk madness, mutation, death, or quite frequently all of the above...and not always in that particular order.
Alright. Magic is outside of reality and needs gods to give it to us. Sounds like we have divine magic, specifically divinely granted magic. Not my favorite, but it can work in the right setting. Let's keep reading to see the particulars.
Magic is inherently chaotic, and breaks down the laws of the mundane world in its rawest form, mana: liquids become solid, light becomes sound, the boundaries between minds and/or bodies become weak or dissolve altogether -- there's an ancient tale of hubris told to any who have dared to work with mana about a town that tried to place a well over a raw manaspring, and how every single inhabitant became part of a massive storm cloud that still roams the world, raining psychic agony instead of water and absorbing those unfortunate enough to come too close to the Eye.
And we zig, when I expected a zag. It is not divinely granted magic. We have a "naturally occurring" manaspring that a town tried to tap into. If magic can be naturally occurring, gods aren't the access points. So to backtrack my last conclusion - we have Warp magic, but is it the divinely regulated variety - you need a regulator (god) on that compressed air (magic) or it'll blow when you try to tap it - or is it the belief as grounding wire variety - you better have something you unshakably believe in to keep yourself tethered to reality or you'll lose yourself to the infinity. The first has an objective divine entity as the focus and the second is more about the individual and what they believe, whether that's a god or even just a fervent belief in something mundane like king, country, ideology, family, or even self.
The Gods and Powers consume mana and then refine it within themselves, sustaining their own manifestations and empowering their followers. How this power works through them and how it can be used varies quite dramatically, but all require some form of bond with the deity or force in question and an alignment of will -- the ancient druids of the Greenheart, for example, had to zealously reject the trappings of society and strive to bring humans back to their beginnings as hunters and gatherers or else their supernatural connection to plants and animals would fail, while the Magi of the Unseen Star were required to insinuate themselves into worldly courts to try and guide them to peculiar destinies decided by visions granted by the Star. Try to prevent these bizarre events, and the Magi would suddenly find that their incantations were only babbled words.
Huh. It's a little hard to say whether divine regulation or belief grounding wire is what we got, as I see hints of both. The first sentence makes it quite clear that divine beings exist and consume mana, so we have objective divine entity. However, the examples given sound more like belief as grounding wire, as the magic seems tied collective belief and adherence to idiosyncratic rituals and taboos.
The potency of any God or Power (and thus their gifts) depends entirely on how many followers are "pacted" to them and their divine purpose; it is said that slaughtering the cults during the Holiest Nights is truly how the Church of the Crimson God rose to ascendancy. In these troubled times, most devoted followers must keep their heads down, and worship is done with the utmost secrecy and care.
Ahhh, now I think it is coming into focus. It seems to be Warp magic of the divinely regulated variety with collective belief shaping reality a la gods get power from worship. It's not belief as grounding wire, because collective belief is essential to create a big enough lightning rod. You can't believe really strongly in yourself to keep yourself grounded, like with CHIM in the Elder Scrolls. It's sort of a Runequest mixed with Warhammer vibe.
System:
Enough with the fluff! Let's get to the delicious, delicious crunch!
Magic is available to every character in the game as long as one of their Aspects reflects it (usually this is their High Concept, but not always) and they have bought the requisite power stunt.
I...uhhh...don't know what an Aspect is. It's capitalized so that makes me think it's a keyword and has a definite meaning within the context of the game, but I don't think it's been discussed any. <checks thread> It's mentioned in one place (nonhuman races) where it is also vague as to what it is but still clearly "A Thing" in the game mechanics.
However, this does confirm divinely regulated magic rather than divinely granted magic, since anyone can do it, not just priests or divinely chosen wonderworkers/prophets.
Gods/Powers grant access to three of the eight Workings -- Evocation, Divination, Enchantment, Summoning, Alchemy, Warding, Transmutation, and Planewalking
A verb-based magic system - a tried and true method. Though, we have some fluff names for the verbs. I'm guessing Evocation is Create, Divination is Know, Warding is Protect, Transmutation is Change. The other four are a little vaguer, though. Enchantment could be Control, as in I enchanted your mind so I controlled your actions or I enchanted the rock so I made it roll without anything having to touch it. Summoning could be Travel, but I imagine that's what Planeswalking does too. Alchemy I have no clue on. Usually alchemy is a crafting thing not a spellcasting thing, and when it is a spellcasting thing, it's usually for Change but we already have Transmutation.
This might be a mish-mash magic system with confused verbs and nouns schools a la Dungeons & Dragons, but I hope not.
and players can choose one of the example Gods/Powers or come up with one of their own; the difference in how players portray each Working's source is largely in roleplay but can also reflect specialization in some domain. Once a God/Power is chosen, the character is considered a devotee and can spend a Fate point in a scene to have their deity/force power their spell instead of taking a Stress hit.
So @Wizz doesn't plan to create a specific list of gods and their related schools, giving players a lot of freedom to come up with crazy faiths, which could be very good. That also means lots of gods and minor faiths and lends further credence to the belief as power for gods thinking I have. I don't know what a Stress hit is. Has @Wizz ever said what system he is using? He mentions Fate points, which narrows things down a bit, but that has become a bit of a generic term that a lot of systems use.
Alternatively, players can choose to be a Pactmaker (see below), and temporarily mix and match their three Workings, but do not have the option to have their spells empowered.
Example Practioners, the Pactmakers: It is said there is an exception to every rule, even the divine ones; the only people bold enough to say that openly, however, call themselves the Pactmakers -- but are more commonly sneered at as sorcerers, warlocks, or ironically and extremely derisively as the Pactbreakers. These pragmatic men and women are devotees to no God or Power, but forge temporary bonds with them in exchange for vows of a single deed or geas.
Ahhh, now we have our people who think grounding wires are for chumps group and abuse the system. Though, in this case it's not that grounding wires are for chumps but using one and only one grounding wire forever and ever is for chumps, when you can just switch grounding wires when needed or have multiple grounding wires at once in case one of them breaks.
This gives them a remarkable flexibility and a reputation among the greater forces of the world as intermediaries between mortality and the divine, shrewd bargainers who are among the rare few that can traverse the wilds and ancient ruins unharmed and unchanged (at least, not permanently).
Shamans. Maybe @Wizz should look at Runequest 6 (now called Mythras) and how it handles Shamanism and dealing with spirits. It's a very interesting take on the spirit world, making deals with spirits, and "enchanting" items with spirits.
Unsurprisingly, this is why the Celebrated Company of Mongrels offers them employment and protection; there is a coven of Pactmakers in every regiment, and every expeditionary force the Company sends into the wilderness includes at least one or more Pactmaker to arrange safe passage with any Power or old god or goddess they encounter.
Players are not only allowed but encouraged to play these sort of characters.
It is whispered that the Pactmakers are all that remain of the Royal Alchemists once employed by the court centuries ago before the rise of the Church, and there is certainly no love lost between them -- Pactmakers are officially heretics, and any who are caught in the practice are condemned to death.
Ooooh! Mysterious backstory to uncover and potential for drama llama RP between mongrels and the Church!
Don't know if my thoughts were any help, but it was a fun way to kill some time while quarantined.
Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
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@ominous said in The Celebrated Company of Mongrels:
. I don't know what a Stress hit is
The only gaming contexts that come to the top of my head are Call of Cthulhu or Crusader Kings 3, lol.
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@ominous said in The Celebrated Company of Mongrels:
Excuse me, @Wizz, as I go through your post and kind of elaborate my thought processes on it. Hopefully it helps you see how someone reads it and their thinking, so you can polish it more in the direction you want to take things.
This is exactly what I was hoping for in posting some of this stuff man! I appreciate it.
@wizz said in The Celebrated Company of Mongrels:
One more quick peek, this time aaaaat
MAGIC
Ahhhh, magic systems - the thing I geek out the most over. Let's see what we got.
Overview: While the true nature and source of magic has been a hotly-debated subject, one thing most every scholar agrees on is that magic is a fundamental essence from outside of reality with which the Gods and other Powers That Be become manifest on this plane of existence. It is through them that it must be "filtered" before mortals can make any contact with it -- or else risk madness, mutation, death, or quite frequently all of the above...and not always in that particular order.
Alright. Magic is outside of reality and needs gods to give it to us. Sounds like we have divine magic, specifically divinely granted magic. Not my favorite, but it can work in the right setting. Let's keep reading to see the particulars.
Magic is inherently chaotic, and breaks down the laws of the mundane world in its rawest form, mana: liquids become solid, light becomes sound, the boundaries between minds and/or bodies become weak or dissolve altogether -- there's an ancient tale of hubris told to any who have dared to work with mana about a town that tried to place a well over a raw manaspring, and how every single inhabitant became part of a massive storm cloud that still roams the world, raining psychic agony instead of water and absorbing those unfortunate enough to come too close to the Eye.
And we zig, when I expected a zag. It is not divinely granted magic. We have a "naturally occurring" manaspring that a town tried to tap into. If magic can be naturally occurring, gods aren't the access points. So to backtrack my last conclusion - we have Warp magic, but is it the divinely regulated variety - you need a regulator (god) on that compressed air (magic) or it'll blow when you try to tap it - or is it the belief as grounding wire variety - you better have something you unshakably believe in to keep yourself tethered to reality or you'll lose yourself to the infinity. The first has an objective divine entity as the focus and the second is more about the individual and what they believe, whether that's a god or even just a fervent belief in something mundane like king, country, ideology, family, or even self.
The Gods and Powers consume mana and then refine it within themselves, sustaining their own manifestations and empowering their followers. How this power works through them and how it can be used varies quite dramatically, but all require some form of bond with the deity or force in question and an alignment of will -- the ancient druids of the Greenheart, for example, had to zealously reject the trappings of society and strive to bring humans back to their beginnings as hunters and gatherers or else their supernatural connection to plants and animals would fail, while the Magi of the Unseen Star were required to insinuate themselves into worldly courts to try and guide them to peculiar destinies decided by visions granted by the Star. Try to prevent these bizarre events, and the Magi would suddenly find that their incantations were only babbled words.
Huh. It's a little hard to say whether divine regulation or belief grounding wire is what we got, as I see hints of both. The first sentence makes it quite clear that divine beings exist and consume mana, so we have objective divine entity. However, the examples given sound more like belief as grounding wire, as the magic seems tied collective belief and adherence to idiosyncratic rituals and taboos.
It is a little bit of both! Think of it kind of like WoD Werewolf's Totems -- the gods or spirits or elementals or what have you offer power, but require something in return, whether that's the consistent set of rituals and taboos or advancing their agenda, something that sort of symbolically or literally reinforces the being's place or purpose in the world (how literal it is depending on the being in question).
Whether or not the devotees actually believe in what they're doing doesn't matter quite as much as going through the motions, but they usually do because their goals align with whatever patron they worship, if that makes sense?
The potency of any God or Power (and thus their gifts) depends entirely on how many followers are "pacted" to them and their divine purpose; it is said that slaughtering the cults during the Holiest Nights is truly how the Church of the Crimson God rose to ascendancy. In these troubled times, most devoted followers must keep their heads down, and worship is done with the utmost secrecy and care.
Ahhh, now I think it is coming into focus. It seems to be Warp magic of the divinely regulated variety with collective belief shaping reality a la gods get power from worship. It's not belief as grounding wire, because collective belief is essential to create a big enough lightning rod. You can't believe really strongly in yourself to keep yourself grounded, like with CHIM in the Elder Scrolls. It's sort of a Runequest mixed with Warhammer vibe.
System:
Enough with the fluff! Let's get to the delicious, delicious crunch!
Magic is available to every character in the game as long as one of their Aspects reflects it (usually this is their High Concept, but not always) and they have bought the requisite power stunt.
I...uhhh...don't know what an Aspect is. It's capitalized so that makes me think it's a keyword and has a definite meaning within the context of the game, but I don't think it's been discussed any. <checks thread> It's mentioned in one place (nonhuman races) where it is also vague as to what it is but still clearly "A Thing" in the game mechanics.
FATE Core! I mentioned the system only once in passing, and these are copy-pasta'd from my own notes so if it's unclear that's...understandable.
I will be sure to clean it up on the actual wiki and provide plenty of references.
However, this does confirm divinely regulated magic rather than divinely granted magic, since anyone can do it, not just priests or divinely chosen wonderworkers/prophets.
Correct!
Gods/Powers grant access to three of the eight Workings -- Evocation, Divination, Enchantment, Summoning, Alchemy, Warding, Transmutation, and Planewalking
A verb-based magic system - a tried and true method. Though, we have some fluff names for the verbs. I'm guessing Evocation is Create, Divination is Know, Warding is Protect, Transmutation is Change. The other four are a little vaguer, though. Enchantment could be Control, as in I enchanted your mind so I controlled your actions or I enchanted the rock so I made it roll without anything having to touch it. Summoning could be Travel, but I imagine that's what Planeswalking does too. Alchemy I have no clue on. Usually alchemy is a crafting thing not a spellcasting thing, and when it is a spellcasting thing, it's usually for Change but we already have Transmutation.
This might be a mish-mash magic system with confused verbs and nouns schools a la Dungeons & Dragons, but I hope not.
It's for sure a little mish-mash right now and definitely not the final draft, I'm adapting them from Dresden Files RPG's Thaumaturgy rules so bear with me as I hammer out the choice of words and definitions!
and players can choose one of the example Gods/Powers or come up with one of their own; the difference in how players portray each Working's source is largely in roleplay but can also reflect specialization in some domain. Once a God/Power is chosen, the character is considered a devotee and can spend a Fate point in a scene to have their deity/force power their spell instead of taking a Stress hit.
So @Wizz doesn't plan to create a specific list of gods and their related schools, giving players a lot of freedom to come up with crazy faiths, which could be very good. That also means lots of gods and minor faiths and lends further credence to the belief as power for gods thinking I have.
Spot on. I'll provide a few examples to set a standard but I really enjoy the idea of people coming up with their own minor gods and obscure cults and stuff.
This gives them a remarkable flexibility and a reputation among the greater forces of the world as intermediaries between mortality and the divine, shrewd bargainers who are among the rare few that can traverse the wilds and ancient ruins unharmed and unchanged (at least, not permanently).
Shamans. Maybe @Wizz should look at Runequest 6 (now called Mythras) and how it handles Shamanism and dealing with spirits. It's a very interesting take on the spirit world, making deals with spirits, and "enchanting" items with spirits.
I will take a look! I want Pactmakers to have a more "dirty occultist" feel, there's certainly nothing "holy man/holy woman" about them like you might imply by calling them shamans.
Players are not only allowed but encouraged to play these sort of characters.
I want a strong "default" option just in case people don't want the pressure of coming up with something or trying to adopt something another player made, for sure.
It is whispered that the Pactmakers are all that remain of the Royal Alchemists once employed by the court centuries ago before the rise of the Church, and there is certainly no love lost between them -- Pactmakers are officially heretics, and any who are caught in the practice are condemned to death.
Ooooh! Mysterious backstory to uncover and potential for drama llama RP between mongrels and the Church!
Not just between the Mongrels and the Church, but also between Mongrels -- the Royal Alchemists are the jerks that made the dwarves in the murky past!
Don't know if my thoughts were any help, but it was a fun way to kill some time while quarantined.
It definitely did help and I will try to clarify as I go. Please keep the feedback coming, it's great!
^_______^
(@_____@)
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@wizz said in The Celebrated Company of Mongrels:
FATE Core! I mentioned the system only once in passing, and these are copy-pasta'd from my own notes so if it's unclear that's...understandable.
Alright! Now I know what I'm actually dealing with. I'm not much a of a FATE player, so I'll have to look into its rules again.
It's for sure a little mish-mash right now and definitely not the final draft, I'm adapting them from Dresden Files RPG's Thaumaturgy rules so bear with me as I hammer out the choice of words and definitions!
I have strong opinions on D&D magic and it's mish-mashiness, so I'm just going to put the long diatribe in a spoiler, so it is easy to skip over rather than reading me whining for a few paragraphs, before I get to the more interesting bits.
******
click to showThat tangent out of the way, you could look at the magic system sued by The Black Company campaign setting for 3.5 D&D. I'm not a fan of it, but I absolutely love their item system and use it in almost every D&D game I run. It has a rarity mechanic where you have to roll to see if an item is even available in a town of the given size. But even better, instead of the glut of magic items, there are advanced mundane items known as "Above Average' items. So instead of a +1 sword, you can fine a sharp sword, which deals +1 damage, or maybe a balanced sword, which gives a +1 to attack rolls or even better a sharp, balanced sword which gives a +1 to both attack and damage rolls. This leaves magic swords to be the ones that glow when rocs or near or burst into flames when you utter the magic word, instead of the boring +1 variety.
you could also look at runequest 6 /Mythras' Sorcery magic system. It has set "spells" one can cast but there are affects you can manipulate, one of them being the Combine effect which lets you cast two spells as one. If you're wanting a more fluid spellcasting which allows for flexibility while still having some solid rules unlike Ars Magica where anything goes, you might look at it. Then again maybe you want just a static list of spells. In that case, ignore this suggestion.
I will take a look! I want Pactmakers to have a more "dirty occultist" feel, there's certainly nothing "holy man/holy woman" about them like you might imply by calling them shamans.
Shamans are just what Runequest calls them, because they practice shamanism, which is simply the magic of entering a trance to consort with spirits and make deals with them. Anything where it sounds like that is what the fluff is going for gets called shamanism by me.
Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
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So I think the easiest way to clarify and ease your concerns is to point out that this is not going to be Vancian magic. There are no spell lists. Workings are not like D&D schools, they're like Spheres in WoD Mage. FATE is a much more narrative system so if you want to do something and you can explain how you're doing it through the lense of your Working, it's likely that I would just let it fly.*
*Y'know, within reason, and hopefully the Workings are intuitive and broad enough to cover your bases.
You want to blast something? Evocation. You want to call and trap some supernatural beastie? Summoning. You want to make a magic doohickey? Enchanting.
Again, the words themselves are in flux, but that's the general idea.
^_______^
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So to perform magic there will have to be a GM around to adjudicate it?
Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam
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FATE still provides a mechanical framework for these effects, with clear requirements and results you can point to, so not necessarily? But since this is going to be a very strictly PVE game, in practice yes.
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The Dresden files fate based game I played on definitely didn't need a GM around for magic anymore than a WoD mage game would.
Looking forward to seeing where this all goes
