OC Superhero Discussion

[ZombieGenesis]

So I thought I'd branch a thread off of a few others to focus on the idea of an OC superhero game. Hoping this maybe helps, in some way, show what people may or may not be interested in.

Is the system important? The talk seems to be about Masks, is that what people want, a Masks RPG? Or does the system not really matter? It seems, for an OC game, people would like to have one. Would Savage Worlds or M&M or whatever other system work just as well?

The conversation centering around Masks puts the theme squarely in the "teen heroes in training". Is that what people want? A Hero Academy game? Or would they like something with a bit wider scope?

I think the crux of the OC superhero game is that everyone is going to want something different. I've seen these discussions happen before and they've generally ended with "Oh, you had me till you said X" or "Well, if it wasn't for Y I'd play there!"

So what would you like to see in an OC superhero game?

[Paradox]

Systems
I think the appeal people have for Masks is the fact that in reading PBTA games there's this narrative appeal (which definitely exists) but it also carries with it a barrier to entry which is a learning curve (as all systems have).

So for me, your first question is what barrier to entry are players willing to pay to get in. I look at something like M&M or Champions as a VERY high barrier to entry. I look at something like Masks or Worlds in Peril as a medium barrier to Entry. Next, you have games like Supers! with a lower barrier (but still a mechanical system) and finally, your basic traits-based game with no barrier.

When dealing with an OC game, I think the traits-based game is tougher. The reason it works for features is that people know what Jean Grey does by and large. On OC game traits are a bit foggier.

So with that in mind. If I were looking at an OC game I would heavily suggest focusing on the low to mid barriers; being Masks or Supers! as the baseline.

Setting
One of the above-mentioned games, Worlds in Peril, is also a PbtA game but it gets less traction than Masks because it is based on Adult Team adventures, characters who are established. It also does a few of the mechanics differently. However, with that in mind, I mention this to state that there isn't a necessity to have things mutually exclusive in that regard. I would be curious to hear what people like and their reasons for it. I think the Teen Hero coming into things has the appeal for those players that can handle failure. Because that's the big deal with PbtA. You fail a lot. Even when you succeed there's a failure in that a lot of times.

FC vs OC
Yes, I know this thread is about an OC game but I did want to voice this thought. The reason I believe FCs and OCs don't exist on a game well together is that FCs crowd out the OCs so quickly and readily. Someone mentioned that there is always going to be some duplication happening, and that's certainly true. But the question I have is has anyone ever attempted to tell players If you want to play Superman that's fine, but you only get these two powers not all of them? Putting the 'Features' on the same level playing field as the OCs. Just a thought I'd float. Sorry if it derails.

[GamerNGeek]

@zombiegenesis
Just gonna say. Sentinel Comics. Probably the most flexible, easiest chargen, narrative-based superhero approach I've seen in ages. It's like the love child of Cortex Prime and Fate.

[ZombieGenesis]

@gamerngeek I've been meaning to check that system out. Thanks for the recommendation.

[GreenFlashlight]

The superhero game systems I'm aware of are so gritty as to be unpleasant to play in. I hope the Sentinels game is more accessible.

[Runescryer]

I think that you can still have FC's in an OC game/setting, just keep them as 'homages' I keep referencing Astro City, because it really is the best comic series, IMO. And, the characters are all recognizable homages. One look at Samaritan, and you know he's Superman. You see Silver Agent and instantly make the connection with Captain America.

Personal example: my character Guardian from an online M&M 3e game. He's got the 'classic' powers: super-strength invulnerability, flight...He's obviously an homage to Superman. But, he's a Paragon that started out life as a thief and gang-banger. He got his powers through an accident, and decided this was a chance to turn his life around; to become someone his estranged kids could be proud of. So, an homage, learning to fill the same inspirational role as Superman, but still different and unique.

[ZombieGenesis]

@runescryer Honestly, as a player for any OC game, mine will be a pastiche of some FC(probably the Hulk or Wolverine).

[headery]

I want a Masks game so bad.

[Runescryer]

@zombiegenesis said in OC Superhero Discussion:

I think the crux of the OC superhero game is that everyone is going to want something different. I've seen these discussions happen before and they've generally ended with "Oh, you had me till you said X" or "Well, if it wasn't for Y I'd play there!"

Just my opinion, but I think that every player of every game that has been or will be created are all looking for the same thing. Investment. What differs is the level/intensity of investment and the method of investment.

Some players find investment through the character. Some through the game plot/setting. Some through relationships/TS. It's all different, but all looking for the same basic need: a reason to care about the game.

What it comes down to is the old adage: You can please some of the people all of the time, or all of the people some of the time, but you can't please all of the people all of the time. You need to have a game that's as flexible as possible to allow players to meet their need for investment, but you also have to make sure that first, your needs as a GM are being met. And this does mean accepting that some people are going to, as a friend of mine put it, 'yuk your yum'. Quite possibly a lot of people will.

With that in mind, here's my idea for creating player investment. Every player is able to create 1 Homage character and 1 Legacy character. These two characters can be combined into a single character choice.

An Homage character is an FC with the serial numbers filed off. See my above post.

A Legacy character is the prime character in charge a a specific origin, tech, species, or other bit of important lore. Every character that falls into that lore needs to coordinate with the Legacy character to make sure everything lines up.

Example: Player A creates Praetorian, a superstrong, flying, bulletproof hero that was sent to our world, as an infant, from an alternate dimension where the Roman Empire never collapsed, called Earth Romanus. This particular dimension was disappearing as the result of an omniversal event. The trip between dimensions imbued the infant Praetor with incredible super powers. He is (currently) the only survivor of Earth Romanus. Praetorian would be both an Homage character (Superman) and a Legacy character for Earth Romanus, even though his app states he is the only survivor.

A few years later, Player B comes along. They like the idea of Praetorian and check if they can have a Earth Romanus character as well; a female cousin to Praetorian whose parents managed to send her to the 'Prime' Earth Dimension with her cousin, but in a separate pod. For whatever wibbly-wobbly dimensional reason, she arrives years after Praetorian does, just now showing up. Player A works with Player B to make sure powers and history and weaknesses all work with their established character and now, Lady Centurion is born as an Homage character (Supergirl). She's not a Legacy character, because Praetorian is still in charge of the Earth Romanus legacy.

[Wizz]

I think the biggest struggle is indeed hitting that sweet spot that pleases the most people possible.

Just to put it out there, I personally don't find a setting that focuses exclusively on teen heroes all that compelling. I think a more universal system would be better, just because you could still have that hero training academy and make that play available for the people who want it, and a larger world for them to exist in.

[Paradox]

@wizz

I would agree with this and my suggestion would actually be a setting where there is a city of the teen young ones and then across the bay or state or what not with the older heroes.

The older heroes are dealing with the major geo political threats and global issues. The teens in training are working to battle city and street crime. Two clear groups. There can be rp cross over (mentors etc) but the big dogs stay in their yard and the pups stay in theirs for the conflicts.

[Paradox]

@headery

Setting up a Masks game on a standard MUSH server isn't an issue. It's a straight forward CG system. I think the issue is people enjoy the Ares and Evennia avenues, so doing it for those is a bit more work to develop the plugins and the like. I could be mistaken, but in the past putting together a PBTA Mush took a couple weeks because it's not a very indepth design.

[Wizz]

@paradox said in OC Superhero Discussion:

a city of the teen young ones and then across the bay or state or what not with the older heroes.
The older heroes are dealing with the major geo political threats and global issues. The teens in training are working to battle city and street crime. Two clear groups. There can be rp cross over (mentors etc) but the big dogs stay in their yard and the pups stay in theirs for the conflicts.

I think you could do that without splitting the grid; take a Young Justice-style approach to resolve the issue in a way that is narratively satisfying for example -- there's a team for young teens to graduate into that targets specific problems a larger legion can't afford to focus on for various reasons (logistical, sociopolitical, etc), so that it's less about "boy is it obnoxious to be flexed on, here's an artificial playpen where adults can't come" and more "your efforts are just as vital as ours, we need you here disrupting Bad Guy Inc's supply lines while we're there in space punching down their satellites and death bot swarms" (or whatever.)

That way you aren't stranding anyone with restrictions on where they can or can't play and creating bottlenecks for more organic RP if, say, the playerbase suffers a temporary decline in interest on one tier of play or the other.

[ZombieGenesis]

@paradox said in OC Superhero Discussion:

@headery

I think the issue is people enjoy the Ares and Evennia avenues, so doing it for those is a bit more work to develop the plugins and the like.

I could probably have a basic setup in Ares done in a weekend. Provided people were happy with in-game c-gen(that provides both an in-game and web based character sheet) and just using a basic dice system.

[SquirrelTalk]

I'd prefer a wider scope in characters, rather than just teens and trainess. Older heroes and mentors and whatnot. I also lean towards freeform roleplaying, but some kind of system for sort out outcome disputes or something might be a good idea.

Homages seem okay, but I don't know that I'd make them explicit; and I'd probably cap the attainable power level somewhere below Superman for player characters, since they tend to create issues and questions just by existing; even if they can contribute interesting things.

[Runescryer]

Also, because Masks is a PBtA game, establishing ties with other PC's and NPC's is part of the c-gen process. In fact, there's a couple of playbooks where the Mentor/Mentoree relationship is essential to the chaacter's mechanics.

I'm of an opinion that a two-city grid is important to a functioning supers game. But instead of a young/old splits, it's more a Gotham/Metropolis split. My homebrew setting does this, adding in a West Coast vibe and mirroring the dynamics/perceptions of San Francisco & Oakland.

The best city split setting that I've seen is 5th Edition Champions, where you have 3 primary campaign cities: Millenium City/Detroit (Metropolis/traditional Supers), Hudson City (Gotham/street level Crimefighters) and Vibora Bay (mystical hoodoo characters)

[Wizz]

@runescryer

I think splitting a grid brings its own set of problems (mainly and most obviously the activity levels I mentioned), but if you're going to do it, it is absolutely more fun to make the split thematic like that. Make each city its own character.

[Paradox]

I'm not even sure if the question is about 'splitting' the grid or if it's about trying to be intentional about providing specific spheres for characters to shine in. For myself, it's that concept. No one wants to see Superman in a street fight and the Punisher has no business fighting Thanos.

You could have everything in one city, as long as there was that established expectation for people to stay in their lanes and not crowd out others.

[Runescryer]

@wizz said in OC Superhero Discussion:

@runescryer

I think splitting a grid brings its own set of problems (mainly and most obviously the activity levels I mentioned), but if you're going to do it, it is absolutely more fun to make the split thematic like that. Make each city its own character.

It's more a matter of practicality. Years upon years ago, I was playing a Paragon-type character and ended up in a scene with a more lethal character. We took down a giant power armor together but I wanted to take the crook in, they wanted to kill the crook. I overpowered the vigilante in every concievable way they responded by threatening to find and kill any loved ones I might have. Both characters were being played correctly, but both should never have been in a scene together to begin with. Heroes need room to be heroic. vigilantes need space to clean up the streets without facing repercussions from heroes that are more powerful than them by orders of magnitude.

[Lilli]

I've only ever played OC, though I have played all the way from totally free-form to Champions. The most fun I had was with ending up at Xavier's - because of tie-ins, I suppose. An OC-only game will need a theme setting that probably requires a bit more work?

Grid - People still use one? I see a bunch of residences. When people want a scene they usually set it up on a channel or via pages or even +rp and off they go. Even in FC games, players tend to be separated by power levels, find and tag into plots they prefer - not wander into Galactus vs the Fantastic Four scene on the grid somewhere.

System. I find most systems stifle creativity, not invite it. Also, systems always invite min/max or people looking for the loophole. That being said, I've always been more attracted to a story, rather than a system. I say more, not only. Main hurdle to any MU* using a system not already boxed is making it - and that's just the main hurdle.

Without going into the how or why, the last super powered campaign I was involved with used a simple, free system that ended up being deceptively deep. We used Risus (not 2.0, but 1.5), with many of the optional rules - in particular Funky Dice. The basic premise of Risus is using @cliches. A cliche can be anything. They rank from 1 to 6, etc, etc. I suppose the main point of this paragraph is the players really enjoyed the total flexibility of concept. It ended up much like a Wild Talents game with Lite rules.

Not sure such a close-knit group of players translate over to a MU, though. Nobody in our group was like, @I Win Every Time, or @Can't Touch This. (Nor would it matter in a Risus game) But sometimes I do wonder if it doesn't really matter. People find their joy and avoid things they don't like.

I find as much joy in bringing somebody's idea to life as my own. When the two collide, it's a blast. Make it, not sure about 'they', but I will come - or at least peek.