The Desired Experience

Ominous

Bringing four sandwiches to one potluck because you're short on cash is one thing. Consistently bringing four sandwiches to the monthly potluck gathering over and over is another. If the first, it happens and isn't a problem. If the latter, your invitations are going to start getting lost in the mail.

Devrex

@ganymede Right? And people's sandwich-making capacity fluctuates.

@L-B-Heuschkel that's sort of a matter of knowing where your sliders are set...what circumstances are between you and the experience you want...and deciding to impact what you can control.

Which is something I neglected to say in my last post, but thought about later. There are circumstances beyond your control and circumstances you can directly impact. And sooner or later there's nothing for it but to either decide you're going to do something about the circumstances you can directly impact or accept the difficulty mode you're on.

Variables you can't control: other people's time, other people's energy, the way a staff that isn't you runs a game, the availability of games, whether or not a theme is the right theme for you, whether or not the kind of RP on offer is the kind of RP you want. The timezone of yourself or other players.

Variables you can't always control: your own time and energy and spoons.

Variables you can control: roleplay skills, bringing ideas to the table, character design, OOC pleasantness (most of the time), etc. etc. etc. etc.

You've taken the path of impacting a variable you can directly control, and while you may not love that you don't have the luxury of being choosey from what I've seen it works out for you. You've also cultivated yourself, from our past interactions, as a skilled roleplayer and storyteller. Imagine if you were trying to do all that and you had no ideas to bring to the table and you were a one line wonder posing lots of "LB nods," and you hadn't engaged in the character design work to go okay this is the experience I want and this is a type of character that has a degree of likelihood to get me there.

Instead you tackle all those factors and make the game you want to be on besides so you're no longer trapped by the dwindling availability of games or the lack of a game you want to play and for the most part that puts your difficulty level at a place where it's reasonable.

It's an effective strategy, and I am a fan of effectiveness.

Ganymede

@ominous

But again you are presuming that I can bring more than four sandwiches at any time.

I mean, if you had a weekly potluck at which I brought only four sandwiches each time, and you elect to take me off the invite list regardless of how good those sandwiches are or how much people enjoy them, then that’s fine. I will stop coming around probably before I’m disinvited.

As long as you are up front about excluding people who can only regularly bring four sandwiches and accept that reputation, I have no objection.

Three-Eyed Crow

@ominous said in The Desired Experience:

@ganymede

Bringing four sandwiches to one potluck because you're short on cash is one thing. Consistently bringing four sandwiches to the monthly potluck gathering over and over is another. If the first, it happens and isn't a problem. If the latter, your invitations are going to start getting lost in the mail.

I hate potlucks due to the social pressure surrounding them and just started taking days off work when my office had them so...win.

This relates to the conversation. Doing something you don't enjoy is a good way to make someone cease engaging altogether.

Sunny

If I only ever have four sandwiches to bring because it’s a hard limit for me, then if you need more than that, I won’t ever be at your party. Please tell me up front, so I don’t waste everyone’s time.

I have in fact in recent history noped out of more than one game because their activity requirements were just too much. It was no hard feelings, I don’t think anyone was even crabby (a little disappointed maybe) but it wasn’t a PROBLEM.

My life and circumstances are HARD where RP is concerned. My job requires a LOT of mental and emotional energy to get through the day. It’s good, but it leaves me with very little left over for hobbies. I can find the time for my nearest and dearest when I have half a brain, but the full brain required for someone new is RARE. Not impossible, just rare. I still contribute, but it will never be through my gripping bar RP, not again. That’s just sort of how it is. Thankfully I have found a game where my situation works. Thank god I don’t have to deal with people who think not living on the game is a problem, any more.

Ominous

@ganymede

If you're consistently only bringing four sandwiches and by that I assume you mean you are giving those four sandwiches to yourself and exactly the same other three people every time and you're not contributing in any other way, such as conversing with a bunch of other attendees, helping set up or clean up after the potluck, etc, then the other 96 people out of 100 at my potluck are either apathetic to your presence or have been getting annoyed at hearing how delicious and awesome your sandwiches are that they don't get to eat, so I'm not seeing much of a negative to the loss of your presence at my potluck and possibly a small positive. If you want to consistently only make four super fantastic sandwiches for you and your three friends and only talk and spend time with them, have a card game/board game night with them instead of going to the potluck. Everyone will have a much better time.

Or to get out of the analogy and apply this more directly to the topic at hand, what @Sunny said.

faraday

@ominous said in The Desired Experience:

If you want to consistently only make four super fantastic sandwiches for you and your three friends and only talk and spend time with them, have a card game/board game night with them instead of going to the potluck. Everyone will have a much better time.

This just literally makes no sense to me. If Gany consistently logs onto my game and plays with their four friends and only their four friends, they're still playing my game. Gany and their friends are having fun. Maybe they're sharing logs now and again for other people to read. Maybe one of their four friends RPs about the shenanigans with somebody else, generating RP for them too. Maybe seeing some activity (even if it's private) helps to convince others that the game is still active.

There are so many potential positives that I really cannot fathom why anyone would think I'd be better off by them going to their own private card game instead.

And there's no negative. It's not like I pay hosting fees per player or anything. There will be no additional RP generated by the absence of Gany and their friends -- in fact, there will measurably be less.

Ganymede

@ominous

You can assume what you want, or you can actually read what I wrote.

If I only have four sandwiches to give, I have to be selective about who I give them too. Am I to be blamed if I give them to my friends? They like my sandwiches. They may tell others how awesome my sandwiches are. And others may want my sandwiches, but I can only make four.

The problem I have with the potluck analogy is that it does not take into consideration what people can give. It implies that you should bring something to a game, and I agree, but where I disagree is where and how people judge others based on what they can bring.

If four sandwiches are not enough, that’s fine.
Just be up front about that. And then I will take my sandwiches elsewhere.

Above all things players like feeling wanted.

Ominous

@faraday

I would count "logs other people can read" as being an analog to "talking to others at the potluck," so my statement would not include such an example.

faraday

@ominous said in The Desired Experience:

I would count "logs other people can read" as being an analog to "talking to others at the potluck," so my statement would not include such an example.

Take away that specific contribution, and my point still stands.

Even if someone logged in and never spoke to a single other person besides their one BFF, never posted a single log, never participated in a single plot, etc., if they and their friend are playing the game and having fun then that's enough of a positive for me.

As @Ganymede and @Sunny pointed out, everyone has their own unique circumstances. I don't understand what is to be gained by judging people and booting them out for failing to live up to some arbitrary expectations of what you think they "should" be able to give.

(ETA: Talking about a generic PC here. I can understand exceptions for featured roles and such where they may have signed up for specific responsibilities as part of taking the spot.)

Ganymede

@faraday said in The Desired Experience:

(ETA: Talking about a generic PC here. I can understand exceptions for featured roles and such where they may have signed up for specific responsibilities as part of taking the spot.)

Same. If you sign up to bring a dozen sandwiches but only bring four I can understand people being soured on that.

il-volpe

@faraday said in The Desired Experience:

This just literally makes no sense to me. If Gany consistently logs onto my game and plays with their four friends and only their four friends, they're still playing my game.

But they're not. They are playing on your game. Or rather, at your game venue. But they are playing their game. Nobody else gets to play. They are showing up at your pot luck, availing themselves of your tables and napkins and comfy heated rooms, using your water and toilet paper, drinking out of your margarita pitcher, and insulting your other guests by replying to "Hey, that looks good, can I have some?" with "Nope, I only have enough for just us," and "Want some of the potato salad I brought?" with "Naw, I'm too full from eatin' this delicious sandwich that you can never try."

Also, my experience with this is that it really looks as if the people who can "only bring four" are bringing four to a group where three out of the four, if not all of them, are doing the same, and they are having a feast. If it really would and truly just ruin your fun to make sliders instead of foot-longs from time to time, welll.

mietze

Nobody is likely to care about people who keep their sandwiches to themselves in their own corner, in my observation, unless they a) become rude to people. You know, like if a newbie says "wow it's kind of hard to break in here" and then the sandwich club sniffs and says "well just work harder, and be better, I mean we don't ever have a problem socializing so you must just be shit" or unfortunately b) an organizer decides that sandwiches are bad so why can't this group that isn't really taking any casseroles have casseroles like everyone else, and decides to rub their casserole all over the sandwich platter, making a huge gross mess that nobody involved likes and also the bad energy from that kind of ruins the mood for everyone else too.

I am so unbelievably exhausted.

il-volpe

@mietze This.

"Damn it's hard to get a scene."
"If you are fun, people will play with you."

Gee, thanks.

ETA: If the game is big, yeah, nobody notices them in the corner, so it's no problem. On a small or middlin' size game, the sandwich club can be very very noticeable. When staff PCs are members of said club and non-club-members are standing around staring at condiments, well. You prolly remember that game.

mietze

@il-volpe the fact is though that you will always have people that are rude and not able to have empathy on a game. Or who will assume that anyone who says that are like the asshole that was a collosal time and energy suck who said shit like that all the time while rejecting all offers of RP/reaching out/ect, and are unable to not apply that to anyone new saying it.

So I mean, people have to develop a thick skin about that shit, sorry. I don't see that it has ever changed in the whole time I've been gaming.

There are humblebraggers and also major energy suckers in the community (and sometimes an unfortunate combination of both occasionally). While I do think it's okay to express sadness or frustration here or on game, if that's really how you feel, I've come to understand that you shouldn't without understanding most of the responses are largely going to be "just suck less". It's a kneejerk response. And often is one from learned experience.

mietze

@il-volpe said in The Desired Experience:

Also, my experience with this is that it really looks as if the people who can "only bring four" are bringing four to a group where three out of the four, if not all of them, are doing the same, and they are having a feast. If it really would and truly just ruin your fun to make sliders instead of foot-longs from time to time, welll.

So here's the thing. It very well may be that the extra time and equipment required to make a party platter of sliders instead of just throwing together some footlongs WILL sap the energy and fun. (Please forgive me, y'all. I spent the vast majority of my formative years plus most of my older kids' early to elementary childhoods being on various hospitality committees for church/PTA/all that shit, so this analogy works very well for me. Not only because people assume a lot about how easy it is to convert a regular recipe to a potluck/funeral/open house size one, but also the unbelievable amount of like...feral, primal angst that is often floating around behind the scenes when someone does something different, unexpected, or "not the norm--i mean not how I think i would do it") In addition, imagine investing all that energy and then having a bunch of people say "oh. yucky, i don't like that. It's soggy/does it have mayo/it looks weird/i've never had that before/is it organic or freerange?". If you think the equivalent doesn't happen on game, then you're very lucky.

I think we all will get more of our desired experience if we remove expectations and resentments from strangers, or people we already know we dislike, and if we have people that we like/know and worry about, to be a little bolder and try to check in/ask them for things we need (as long as it's okay if they say no). But it's fucking hard, I know.

It is fruitless to try to break in when it's clear you aren't wanted. No amount of forcing whomever you perceive to share with you will make you feel wanted. It's a tough time right now especially because a lot of people now are burnt out and anxiety is whallopping many people who usually are able to keep an handle on it, so the feeling of being unwanted may not even be reality.

But in the case where truly only a small clique of staff friends gets attention and time, I mean...why on earth would you waste your time moping at the lukewarm, wilty pepperoncinis that are left amongst the crumbs for you, and why wouldn't you just GTFO.

That's why I say the most important part of my desired experience is less who gets what, and more...I don't know. Being around people who are nice to me. Who seem to enjoy interacting with me. Who aren't noticeably OOCly mean to people in front of me. If that's not present, then it really doesn't matter how technically awesome and populated the game is. It falls flat. But for others, it's exactly the opposite. That's okay, even if it's sad that a place that you want to like you just doesn't work out.

faraday

@il-volpe said in The Desired Experience:

But they're not. They are playing on your game. Or rather, at your game venue. But they are playing their game. Nobody else gets to play. They are showing up at your pot luck, availing themselves of your tables and napkins and comfy heated rooms...

Yep, and I'm fine with that, because my job as an admin is to provide a venue for people to tell THEIR stories, not to tell MY story. If they're entertaining themselves and having fun in my tables, more power to them. That's awesome. If they contribute somehow through the sorts of "spill over" I described (logs, ancillary RP being spurred, etc.) all the better, but it's not required.

and insulting your other guests by replying to "Hey, that looks good, can I have some?" with "Nope, I only have enough for just us," and "Want some of the potato salad I brought?" with "Naw, I'm too full from eatin' this delicious sandwich that you can never try."

Whoa, when did "insults" become part of the scenario here? Everything we've been talking about has been people minding their own business RPing with their friends. If they're actually NOT minding their business but instead being obnoxious jerks, then you deal with that. One really has nothing to do with the other.

il-volpe

@faraday If you're fine with that, cool. I was fine with it, running a game.

I'm not sure I agree with your reasoning -- I want the overall story of the game to be ours.

They don't have to be actively being obnoxious jerks to be insulting. It's like, eh. Sure, I invite you to a party, I am not gonna tell you it's wrong of you to spend the whole time chatting with your friends. However, it is rude, in the Miss Manners Would Not Approve sense, to give other party-goers the silent treatment or tell them, "Private conversation!" every time they approach. (Yes, yes, sometimes you just miss something so you don't answer a person, and sometimes you really are in a private conversation and it's okay to do that, but when somebody does that all the time it isn't a mistake or a special circumstance, and if people take it for what it looks and feels like, an insult, a snub, who can blame them?)

Derp

@il-volpe

The problem with your analogies so far is: you're viewing a MUSH as a party where the host expects you to interact with absolutely everyone. And it's just not.

A MUSH is a place where you get together with friends and tell cool stories. It's essentially the world's biggest community theater with an all but unlimited number of stages. Not a party.

And if four of those actors want to take up one stage and put on their own little productions, they are not hurting anything.

In fact, when it comes to rudeness, it's the ones that jump on stage with some weird, hard to follow concept that just decide to insert a part into their play that are actually the ones being pretty damn rude.

And that's been my experience. The ones who insist that everyone has to RP with everyone? The ones that insist that people be in public rooms, on the public grid, in open scenes that they can just divebomb their way into? Those tend to be far more problematic than the little friend circle that sticks to their own little stage in their own little area, not fucking with other people.

Because the dive-bombers and hte ones that insist that everyone should be playing with everyone? Those are often the ones that have annoyed the fuck out of everyone else, and can't get RP any other way than by coming in to what is essentially a captive audience. And that's way more problematic for any game than the little friend circle.

So while people might think it's rude so say, "No, go away until you learn to suck less," it's pretty fucking rude to put them into a position to have to say that to you in the first place.

il-volpe

@derp Nobody here has said anyone expects anyone to play with absolutely everyone.

"Small closed playgroups suck" != "play with everyone."

"I had a crap time playing with you, go away until you learn to suck less," != "I don't know you and don't have the time/energy/inclination to see if you really suck or not, but go away until you suck less."