Selecting a system to play
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@Miss-Demeanor said:
Maybe I'm just a monster... but I like the D&D based ruleset from that Exodus link Lithium tossed up earlier.
I know this will make @Misadventure want to slit my throat but I like D&D as well. Pathfinder as well I guess. But it's not really due to some nerdy which-ruleset-is-the-best inner debate but, rather, on the basis of recognition and media support in an attempt to have a game's mechanics be as immediately familiar as possible with as many potential players as can be.
Sure, the ultra honed heavily houseruled set of Bob's Fantasy Compedium (Eighth Edition) might be exactly right for... something, I dunno, but if no one's ever heard of that shit next to no one but friends and family is going to play it. The niche will be played by our community's equivalent to hipsters, roleplay will be incestuous at best and impossible to find at worst and all that effort might as well have gone to a Skype-ran campaign in the first place.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@Arkandel said:
I know this will make @Misadventure want to slit my throat but I like D&D as well. Pathfinder as well I guess. But it's not really due to some nerdy which-ruleset-is-the-best inner debate but, rather, on the basis of recognition and media support in an attempt to have a game's mechanics be as immediately familiar as possible with as many potential players as can be.
Sure, the ultra honed heavily houseruled set of Bob's Fantasy Compedium (Eighth Edition) might be exactly right for... something, I dunno, but if no one's ever heard of that shit next to no one but friends and family is going to play it. The niche will be played by our community's equivalent to hipsters, roleplay will be incestuous at best and impossible to find at worst and all that effort might as well have gone to a Skype-ran campaign in the first place.
I really disagree and think this is an attitude that is cancerous to the future of the hobby.
Not every game needs to use WoD because 'omg the most people know it'.
If people want to ignore a game just because they don't feel like learning a new system, hey whatever, but that doesn't mean everybody should stop making anything that isn't WoD.
I would say, if you're going to do something like this, you do not need to fully code/etc the game before opening. Because yes, you MIGHT be wasting a hell of a lot of time. And if people log on and give you shit about the game being 'in progress', fuck them.
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@Tempest coughs You DO realize he was using D&D as the reference there, not WoD, right?
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@Miss-Demeanor said:
@Tempest coughs You DO realize he was using D&D as the reference there, not WoD, right?
I don't think either/or really make any difference when it comes to her point, though.
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@Miss-Demeanor I'm not sure what my brain did there. Jumbled it up with the previous mentions of WoD, I guess. My apologies.
The point still largely stands, just swap the WoD for D&D. If somebody wants to make a game that isn't using one of the "popular" TTs, why tell them not to?
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Probably not, just my nitpickiness rearing its head. I'm still in @Arkandel's camp on this one, though. Not that I'm going to log into someone's game that using an obscure ruleset *to bitch at them, mind... but I still think he's got a valid point. As many of us find ourselves with less and less free time, how many really want to use that slowly closing window to have to learn a whole new ruleset just to play on a new game? I'm pretty sure that's a factor in why so many people are looking to convert popular video games into popular RPG rules. Less of a learning curve, you already know at least the basics, now you just have to apply them to a new game and new terms.
*edited for leaving out an important part of the statement
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This goes to a wider issue of that kind of thought making it hard to actually play games that don't use popular systems.
If I want to make a The Strange game, I'm not going to convert it to nWoD system; I'm going to want to use the system that the game actually uses. But will my game get people? Should I not do it because I may not have a huge playerbase? Etc.
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Ark definitely has a point, it will absolutely get less players.
Will it get /some/ though?
I really think a sandbox-y thing would work for a while. It'd give people a chance to peek at the book if they're interested, and decide if they like the stuff or not.
You could skip a lot of code by having +sheets saved on staff-locked character wiki pages or something of the sort until you see if the game'll last/get folks or not.
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Oh sure! If I like a game enough then I'll dive in and and least poke at the new rules. But I generally need incentive of some kind to want to put in that amount of time to learn it. I like D&D well enough, but not so much that I'm going to run out and buy 5th ed. I pretty much stopped at 3.5/Pathfinder. I'm told its much like 3.5 but with some elements of 4th to make play easier. So I guess if someone handed me the book free of charge I would sit down and at least flip through it, but I wouldn't purposely seek it out unless I had a good reason (lots of friends playing there, know and like the GM enough to give it a shot, etc.).
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@Tempest said:
I really disagree and think this is an attitude that is cancerous to the future of the hobby.
Not every game needs to use WoD because 'omg the most people know it'.
If people want to ignore a game just because they don't feel like learning a new system, hey whatever, but that doesn't mean everybody should stop making anything that isn't WoD.
Wow, cancerous. That's a strong word! I've seen my attitude described in a variety of ways over time but I think that's a new one.
No, it's not cancerous to the future of the hobby, it is the opposite. We are a shrinking community, not an expanding one, and further fragmentation into ever-smaller niches damages instead of reinforces whatever it is that's still holding us together. In more prosperous time - the late nineties for instance - we could and did afford to run a whole lot more things since the pool of fresh students who were first getting on the internets was nigh-inexhaustible.
You could argue - and I certainly can't refute you - that if you want to run a game based on absolutely whatever it is you find appealing then you should. That's absolutely true. But making a new MU* from scratch is a ton of work; I'm talking setting up code, wiki, a grid, the full trappings of getting something like that off the ground, not to mention creating word of mouth so you can have people help out and (heavens forbid) actually play the blasted thing in the end.
Well, it's your time and effort. I got zero say in it. What I am however suggesting is that doing all of this work for a handful of players may be ill-advised compared to just grabbing those players (at this point you probably already know them by name) and pulling them into Skype. The same amount of fun for a fraction of the work.
I'm not theorizing most people don't want to read new rules and be introduced to fresh mechanics for a game they might or not even keep playing after a week. I consider it to be obvious. Hell, I know a lot of folks who've been playing WoD for years and still only know, if anything, the barest basics. Hellx2, @Coin still berates me on my own lack of knowledge on the system.
What you do after that is your business.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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Cancerous. Probably a bit strong. I am just really wanting /something/ besides WoD that actually has a book to support it. (And no, FATE doesn't count.
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@Arkandel said:
Hellx2, @Coin still berates me on my own lack of knowledge on the system.I don't even know how the hell you manage to forget some of this stuff, seriously.
Anyway, I could refute your whole argument by pointing out that the repetitive overuse of the same system over and over and over and over and over again is part of the reason so many people are disenchantged with MUing, leave, quit, et cetera, which may not be a large part, but I would wager has an effect.
Honestly, the only reason I think World of Darkness still has such a strong presence 8and even it has dropped significantly--i.e. a lot) is because they continually renew their source material--new games, new editions, new things to add. oWoD gave way to nWoD, and now nWoD is giving way to GMC, etc.
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Because of three reasons.
a) I don't care about the intricacies of the system as as a whole. I only care about what I'll be using.
b ) I don't memorize things I don't care about a lot. I look them up.
c) Screw you!
But seriously, we should probably have a thread and discuss the merits of popular systems versus more niche ones before we derail this poor one even further. @EmmahSue, @Glitch, @Thenomain?
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@Arkandel said:
Because of three reasons.
a) I don't care about the intricacies of the system as as a whole. I only care about what I'll be using.
b ) I don't memorize things I don't care about a lot. I look them up.
c) Screw you!
But seriously, we should probably have a thread and discuss the merits of popular systems versus more niche ones before we derail this poor one even further. @EmmahSue, @Glitch, @Thenomain?
So basically because you prefer to be a pain in the ass. Okay.
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@Tempest said:
I really disagree and think this is an attitude that is cancerous to the future of the hobby.
Not every game needs to use WoD because 'omg the most people know it'.
If people want to ignore a game just because they don't feel like learning a new system, hey whatever, but that doesn't mean everybody should stop making anything that isn't WoD.
I would say, if you're going to do something like this, you do not need to fully code/etc the game before opening. Because yes, you MIGHT be wasting a hell of a lot of time. And if people log on and give you shit about the game being 'in progress', fuck them.
I wish I could upvote you more for this. People should be running these things out of passion because they really want to play or make the game they envision. If others don't share their vision, the game will fade or die, but always deciding to go with what you think will be popular is worse than going with what makes you happy.
No, it's not cancerous to the future of the hobby, it is the opposite. We are a shrinking community, not an expanding one, and further fragmentation into ever-smaller niches damages instead of reinforces whatever it is that's still holding us together.
No, it's not opposite. You're talking about hunkering down and sticking with the familiar as the community shrinks, because we all know how well that ever succeeds at making anything better. Instead, people should try new things, experiment, fail or succeed based on their attempts and do what inspires them to tell stories and roleplay (even if that is WoD or D&D). Maybe the community still shrinks, but it's also not the option that is guaranteed to make it stagnate further.
I'm not theorizing most people don't want to read new rules and be introduced to fresh mechanics for a game they might or not even keep playing after a week. I consider it to be obvious.
If everyone was like this, there would never be anything new or even the impetus to try new things. I consider this to be pretty obvious too.
If WoD or D&D is your passion, then make a game on that system that you love. If you're trying a new setting and want some easy code because you're experimenting and @Thenomain's nWoD code is just sitting right there? I'm not going to begrudge that. Having enough players to make a game viable is important to the game's success, but not taking any risks with a system you might like more because "the community is small and doesn't want to learn and you shouldn't make them because then they won't come to your game" is the worst reason I can think of to select a system.
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@Glitch said:
I wish I could upvote you more for this. People should be running these things out of passion because they really want to play or make the game they envision. If others don't share their vision, the game will fade or die, but always deciding to go with what you think will be popular is worse than going with what makes you happy.
Because those two things are mutually exclusive? People do run these things out of passion; they have had for a while. And since MU* - unlike table-top games - are massively collaborative efforts where no one or two people can pull it off - you need to rely on others to realize the vision you set out with.
I remember the first time I ever launched a game. We had been working on it for months and once we actually opened I remember looking at some players whose names I didn't know at all being in a public room at 1 am playing and thinking - hey, wow. This is so neat.
This isn't commercialism versus individualism (the idea of even WoD as a massively pushed product is hilarious given what we're doing with our time and how many of 'us' exist), it's a mere matter of practicality and best allocation of effort and time.
Again, you (the generic 'you') are free to do what you wish with yours. I'd never discourage someone from running their own thing, there's nothing wrong with that.
No, it's not opposite. You're talking about hunkering down and sticking with the familiar as the community shrinks, because we all know how well that ever succeeds at making anything better. Instead, people should try new things, experiment, fail or succeed based on their attempts and do what inspires them to tell stories and roleplay (even if that is WoD or D&D). Maybe the community still shrinks, but it's also not the option that is guaranteed to make it stagnate further.
I am saying there's no such thing as 'should'. What does that even mean? If anything people should try to have fun. I am asserting - and there's no way for me to prove it other than empirical evidence so I can only push the idea that far, but I find it far from hard to defend otherwise - the majority of players don't care about the mechanics they're using, they care about the game's themes, roleplay being available, their friends being around.
It's alright to value different things. I place great value in being able to play with more than the same 2-3 people I have been all week because no one else is logging on. I find no inspiration in that.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@Arkandel said:
I am asserting - and there's no way for me to prove it other than empirical evidence so I can only push the idea that far, but I find it far from hard to defend otherwise - the majority of players don't care about the mechanics they're using, they care about the game's themes, roleplay being available, their friends being around.
I always used to say I don't give a damn what the mechanics are if it's a theme I want to play. And then FATE came along and made a liar out of me.
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To briefly note, I also have 7th Sea code sitting around. Faraday has Fudge code sitting around. Options abound.
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@Glitch said:
People should be running these things out of passion because they really want to play or make the game they envision. If others don't share their vision, the game will fade or die, but always deciding to go with what you think will be popular is worse than going with what makes you happy.
I do not think that resorting to the Storyteller System may be seen as going with what's popular per se. It's about the "easy of access" factor to be considered.
As you've conceded, the code for a Storyteller System game is already available. You can take it and tweak it as you'd like. You have the system available in book form already. And a lot of people are familiar with it. So, if you want to start a game now, why not use it?
That said, I've been sitting on a Mass Effect system for nearly a year. I am in the third version for the system. I've put a lot of time into it, and have been working alone on it. There is a version already available for use in book form, but I decided that it did not work for what I wanted to create.
The interest of creating a unique or custom system, which takes time, is sometimes outweighed by the expediency of getting the project off the ground. Either choice is reasonable. In my opinion, however, picking an available system that has arguably been overused is not necessarily an appeal to popularity.
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@Thenomain If you have 7th sea code, why isn't there a game of it around?????? I don't even know it, but I believe it's the same system as L5R? Which I have a little experience with.
