Fair answers on the system thing, I wouldn't agree on the shadowrun thing but that is largely do to my dislike of the roll a bunch of dice and see which one count as a success core mechanic myself, even though WoD which uses the same is by far the game lines I have played the most both in TT and Online. Mainly because I do not like how they behave mathematically. I much prefer the BRP and FS core mechanic of trying to roll under a number based on your PC abilities and situational modifiers, or even the basic D20 and many other systems thing of rolling then adding and subtracting various things based on abilities and situations.
Like @bored I was mainly responding to the idea that FS is some how especially bad, I do consider it a better game then most out there.
As afar as the board game idea I think it could be interesting but only would concern the part of the mush I would avoid like the plague so no real response about that, Star Crusade focus on that aspect to it's detriment I think and from what i have heard that has also been the main focus of the FS MUSHes that preceded it Honestly if anew FS game shared that focus I would likely not bother even poking around it as a guest, since the biggest issues with Star Crusade and mentioned in this thread and elsewhere had little to do with mechanics and more to do with the people involved. And while I might be crazy at times I am not insane or stupid and the same setting, with the same focus would attract the same people which would lead to the same results. And while I do not regret playing on SC I have a lot of fun scenes on there and make a couple friendships with people I have played with other places since then I would not sign up for the ride knowing the likely result going into it.
Fading Suns
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Fair answers on the system thing, I wouldn't agree on the shadowrun thing but that is largely do to my dislike of the roll a bunch of dice and see which one count as a success core mechanic myself, even though WoD which uses the same is by far the game lines I have played the most both in TT and Online. Mainly because I do not like how they behave mathematically. I much prefer the BRP and FS core mechanic of trying to roll under a number based on your PC abilities and situational modifiers, or even the basic D20 and many other systems thing of rolling then adding and subtracting various things based on abilities and situations.
Like @bored I was mainly responding to the idea that FS is some how especially bad, I do consider it a better game then most out there.
As afar as the board game idea I think it could be interesting but only would concern the part of the mush I would avoid like the plague so no real response about that, Star Crusade focus on that aspect to it's detriment I think and from what i have heard that has also been the main focus of the FS MUSHes that preceded it Honestly if anew FS game shared that focus I would likely not bother even poking around it as a guest, since the biggest issues with Star Crusade and mentioned in this thread and elsewhere had little to do with mechanics and more to do with the people involved. And while I might be crazy at times I am not insane or stupid and the same setting, with the same focus would attract the same people which would lead to the same results. And while I do not regret playing on SC I have a lot of fun scenes on there and make a couple friendships with people I have played with other places since then I would not sign up for the ride knowing the likely result going into it. -
@ThatGuyThere said:
Like @bored I was mainly responding to the idea that FS is some how especially bad, I do consider it a better game then most out there.
Well, I wouldn't go that far either. I'd say its pretty much average as skill based systems go. It's workable and so long as the GM sets expectations in terms of min-maxing, it will tell the story it's trying to tell, mostly (which is part of why Plastic Plate making you as tough as a tank is OK, btw: I'm preeeeetty sure it's a game where weird sci-fi feudal knights are supposed to charge tanks and kill them with swords).
I think its one of the unfortunate things in RPGs that we haven't seen a lot more innovation on some of these basic approaches over the years. The vast majority are pretty similar, and so they also tend to duplicate the same problems over and over again (huge variance in success based games, broken bounding in additive systems, etc). It's one reason I've enjoyed the FFG system recently (custom rich dice). It's not perfect either (no system really is) but its nice to do something other than the familiar suspects. This praise would also apply to things like the ORE mentioned above, Weapons of the Gods, etc.
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Late to the conversation, the game mechanics limp along acceptably with either FS 1 or FS 2 but as mentioned previously, it's very flawed. 1-on-1 Combat will take literally hours, especially if you twink out a good energy shield/armor combo. And that's not even taking into account actual poses.
The theme was, however, standout, and it's hard to find anything like it. Some of the Kushiel games, for example, have a lot of the high politics component but that's exactly why games of political plays fall apart. There's amorphous dice that allows GMs/Staff to manipulate the story with no player input and/or toxic political environments that result in factionalism and distrust. Or the third option of it devolving into a frankly terrible marriage simulator full of pretty princes and princesses.
So a Hawkwood Questing Knight, a Muster Slave Trader, and a Hazat Dervish walk into a bar in Severus...
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Putting aside mechanics, what about themes? what would be good world settings?
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"A new life awaits you in the Off-world colonies! A chance to begin again in a golden land of opportunity and adventure!"
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I always wanted to set the timeline several decades into the future in a dark dystopian Empire (more so than usual) highlighted by corruption and decadence in the capital worlds and decay of the human spirit in the borderlands where the setting would be a sleepy town besieged by Vuldrok refugees from a Symbiot infested world and maybe a Kurgan or Sathraist presence causing discontent in a world where the slowly fading fire of human civilization is withdrawing into twilight. Far from the political squabbles of the Royal Houses (although with the historic animosities in place) trying to survive the winter that looms perpetual. And a giant armada approaching to wipe out the whole planet into a rocky smear.
In Byzantium Secundus, Alexius marries Salandra but not before he and Thefana produces a legitimized bastard son before she completely disappears in battle... as Salandra continues to be unable to conceive, threatening civil war as relations between the Hawkwoods and Decados reaches a nadir. No one gives a damn because the Vuldrok keep coming in this frontier world, there are reports of Symbiot activity within those refugees, and the star may potentially explode any minute. 'Normal' people are trying to get off the planet but the Empire enacted measures to limit flows of traffic to the known worlds, especially after still-unconfirmed rumors of Symbiots. Lawless Avesti and Orthodox fanatics run around killing anything that isn't remotely human while the hodgepodge of nobility left struggle to keep order or to horde resources as the planet's ecosystem is dying off. Local barons, muster captains, and a steady stream of Vuldrok raiders become feuding warlords and sellswords in an increasingly desperate environment where technology continues the fail, the planet is dying, and the unwashed masses are trapped to face an unknown foe with literally sticks and stones.
The planet becomes a hotbed for questing knights with delusions of saving the planet, second sons of nobles who want to carve out lands even in this inhospitable environment, league partisans out to strip the planet of every last scrap, and fundamentalist churchers running around 'purging' the planet of sin. Suicide bombings, mass murders in the market place, whole villages and refugee camps slaughtered, and the constant threat of famine and pestilence fills the air.
There are rumors of an armada being gathered in the capital worlds, but not to save the planet but to bombard it out of existence and close the jump gate forever. Or the Vau. It doesn't matter. Time is running out.
This may or may not be how I imagine certain parts of the United States deep south. (I'm in Virginia).
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I was thinking about a desert planet rich in minerals and war traditionally the domain of the al-Malik named Taormina. The al-Malik have always shared the planet with the Hazat. The Hazat don't ask for much, they came for the glory of fighting the enemies on the front and the al-Malik are more than happy to let them fight while extending them credit and supplies. The Hazat are aware that this is a double edged sword but are banking on the land and glory they gain to pay off in the long run under the emperor's eyes. Both houses are aware they're using each other. Sometimes this causes minor spats in the lower echelons of their employs, but the men and women at the top don't sweat the details. It's a better agreement than most would get.
For a long time they were the only ones on the planet, until the Imperial Garrison moved in and set up shop. With a ship in orbit and a ground base erected in a matter of days, the Hazat and al-Malik are wary, but at least the al-Malik know how to be subtly wary. No one has approached the Imperials yet, nor have the Imperials approached anyone yet. It's a time bomb, both houses know it, the Imperial Knights don't show up because they're bored, they want something and eventually they'll ask for it. However, that day is not this day.
The arrival of the Imperials meant new eyes looking over Taormina and the arrival of the other noble houses. Some with the Imperial Garrison as questing knights, Others as diplomats to the al-Malik or Hazat and still others who swooped in and claimed land. This has not been an easy transition and house al-Malik has made clear their displeasure. House Hazat doesn't say much about it, but everyone knows that they're waiting for someone to make the wrong step so they can set upon them like rabid dogs. Tense would be an improvement for the Hazat. House al-Malik and Hazat feel robbed, some people feel rightly so, others not so much, because they were the ones here shedding blood first - though to note house al-Malik had only lost 150 men and women since they took the planet, so it's a bit tongue in cheek.
The war though waits for no one. While diplomats for House Hazat and al-Malik meet with guests and await for the fateful day when a knight with the emperor's seal comes forth, the soldiers continue to fight at the fronts and push back the many enemies on the planet. The Vau are the most dangerous of these enemies, but the only good news for everyone involved in that front is that they seem content to only launch the occasional attack. Of course, that occasional attack is usually devastating. Once you get past that, there are plenty of feuding tribal city states to compete with and they aren't happy we're here. Of course, they're even less happy now since three more houses just dropped into their lands and claimed sections. They're super unhappy with the Li Halan who claimed one of their temples because, and this is a quote, 'It's easier to commandeer a temple than to build one.'
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I'd stay away from any Imperial involvement/giving any shits at all. They're one of those things in the setting that once you invoke them, it sets off the rabid player instinct to fight to be the shiniest of the shiny and be connected to it in some way.
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@bored Huh. Admittedly, I haven't played a fading suns game where imperial status was incorporated, not even by way of a questing knight with a writ. The idea was for the imperials to act as more of a looming disaster than a reason to act awesome. While it's true that it also acts as the impetus for everyone else suddenly becoming interested because you know ,why are they suddenly interested, something must be there.
Noted though. No imperial influence. Bad idea. got ya.
Edit: So adding imperials to a fading sun campaign is like adding monks to an L5R campaign? It's either going to be complete shit or it's going to be annoying?
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I don't mean not having Questing Knights as individual, unsupported characters. I mean the idea of 'the Imperials show up and <whatever>', basically anything remotely close to a role as a relevant faction in the setting itself. So the looming fleet in @Apollonius's example (as well as all the silly 'omg who got to have the Emperor's baybeee?'), them showing up and setting up a garrison in yours, etc. I think the game plays much better when there's no higher authority to appeal to or give a shit if you get your head splattered by a barbarian.
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It is more to just accelerate the timeline to a time where historical animus has calmed down in the overall metagame. I could care less about the metagame and who is fucking what in the imperial capital but if we accelerate the game 15 years and Alexius is still unmarried and still has no successor, the Known Worlds would have fallen into a state of total civil war.
We can have the same result, if a little more paranoid and screwed up if the jumpgate just turned off and the star is about to go nova in a couple of years but that'd mean that the influx of new PCs will have to come from the planet, necessitating a larger geographic sprawl or population sprawl, which comes with its own list of problems. This would, however, make the Imperial Questing Knights interesting, as suddenly, their home base and operations no longer exist, and since they abandoned their loyalties for the throne, a world sundered from the gate will not be very conducive for their well being.
My push is to make it dark and depressing as humanly possible without wholesale concentration camps and ovens spewing ash.
Actually, that, for a Fading Suns game setting could be very interesting.
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@Apollonius Fading Suns as an emo game would suck, man. Just set it before Alexius is ever chosen to be Emperor.
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@deadculture I like to just forget alexius exists since he usually does shit all. I mean, the last time he did anything was start a war. Now he just sits on his throne with the ever present threat of taking the noble houses toys away from them for a war against barbarians that would last an indefinite amount of time.
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So he acts like a feudal king?
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@ThatGuyThere said:
So he acts like a feudal king?
No, he acts like a mix of Napoleon and Octavian. Which very much sucks in a game.
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@deadculture I'm probably not going to make an FS game anytime soon so no worries.
The problem with setting it before Alexius is Emperor is that the known worlds are in a state of active war amongst the Royal Houses which is sort of a pain to keep track in the meta narrative. You have to set it way before, maybe even for the brief time that Alecto was in power (and also deal with five other royal houses that were still in control), set it to 'present day' where that stupid metaplot lingers, or far enough into the future to tie things up (at the risk of having to deal with creative license on how all that stupid shit actually tied together).
If I do run a game, it'll largely be just an online base of operations for continuous campaigns that may or may not affect the overall meta-narrative on that particular planet. My first campaign will undoubtedly be set in some sort of gritty prison town under a genocidal Viscount and the players assembled need to escape or cope with continuing degradation of the human condition under the extreme situation of planet-wide death and war atrocities.
The next campaign will be on a port town ruled by a Pirate merchant magnate with a dark antinomist secret and a MacGuffin that suggests to the heroes/antagonists of greater power locked up in some lost Ur ruins. The town is besieged by husks.
The third campaign will be a race to find pieces of an artifact. Kurgans, Scravers, and the players (possibly against themselves) fighting and jostling for the pieces. Based on who 'won' the scenario, the planetary environment will shift dramatically.
The fourth campaign will entail a dig of a large capital ship that crashed a remote part of the planet. The search is on to find an important energy source but the ship and possibly the locals are invested by symbiots. 80% chance that the Vau and the Known Worlders are alerted, both of whom are intent on bombarding the planet to total extinction.
The final campaign, depends largely on whether or not the Vau and/or Known Worlder trigger occurred or not in the fourth campaign but either way, large scale Symbiot infestation. In this campaign, it's a last ditch to find a ship or save the planet before all life is wiped out.
Pretty much the trajectory of all Bioware games.
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@Apollonius Actually, setting it before there was an imperial throne wouldn't be a bad idea. That would actually make for a better environment for politics in my opinion because then there's no looming hand of God. It's just the noble houses bickering with each other, making back door deals, dealing with their new found alien neighbors and the church finding its place in each.
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@Alzie I'm personally very against setting the game pre-Alexius for the following reasons:
- Hot War. Before Alexius, for the most part, the game theme is stuck in a hot war. This means blood is actively being said and the houses are allied or murdering each other or allied and murdering each other. And the butterfly effect is in place where even in some shit backwater planet (I'm looking at you, Malignatius)
- Thematic Gaps. The end of the Emperor Wars under Alexius meant the extinction or marginalization of five of the ten great houses that were fighting for the throne. We'd have to piece together thematic stuff for Van Gelder or even Alecto depending on how far we want to go back.
I suppose it depends on exactly how far we go back. I'm leery about going back all the way to the last years of the Second Republic because of the dearth of thematic history, for example (although a functional game from that period would be kinda neat). There are large stretches of time obviously where the theme was not in a state of hot war, but I'd need to revisit the theme books. My set of campaigns could technically fall in any planet and time frame for the most part, but the dynamics between the PCs could be potentially very different.
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It's not terribly hard to just say 'the wars have ground to an inconclusive stalemate,' is it? Current modern setting, just short of any one actually winning?
That said, I don't think having an Emperor is a problem really. Putting larger scale Imperial forces into play is the problem, or really anything where you try and base too much of your game on metaplot and book NPCs and all that drek. But it's an impulse some people seem to have, to want to tie in as much of it as they can.
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I just think the Emperor and all the drama surrounding him is best left avoided. If he exists as a nonentity, that's fine, but nobody has made a FS game where Alexius doesn't have a finger in the pie.