Request: Downtime System + Hunting/BP System

[boneghazi]

Howdy!
So I've been thinking about a few systems I'd like to automate in my MU.

1. Blood!
   I'd like, for once a day if you're connected as a vampire, to have 1 BP subtracted from your BP.

2. Herd Bank!
   Herd gives Rating x 6 BP/month. I'd like a command like
   +herd <#> -> adds # to your BP.
   And it refreshes monthly.

3. Domain Bank!
   Similar to Herd, it gives Rating x 6 BP/month. Refreshes monthly.
   I'd like a command like: +Domain <#> -> Adds # to your BP.
   But you also need to piecemeal it out to people. So, maybe a command like
   +Domain/Character Name/<#> -> that would automate giving that character another pool equal to the # specified) to draw BP from when they need it. Refreshes monthly.

4. Downtime System.
   Works with points (WP+Sta+1) x4/ month. This refreshes monthly.
   *Vampires are assumed to have Stamina 5, as they do not get tired from physical activity.
   -Points spent per day are capped at (Your Total / 30) per day, rounded up.
   -Any stats bought that would increase this take effect the next month.
   -Good Time Management adds 4 pts/week (16 points per month).

Type of Action: Upkeep
-To upkeep certain merits, you must spend their rating in downtime points per month, lest they deteriorate.
So I'd like a command like +Upkeep <Merit>
Available Merits: Allies, Contacts, Status, Mentor, Retainers, Hobbyist Clique, Secret Society.
Pack Alpha/Beta - Must spend points x members of pack.
So maybe a command like +Upkeep Pack
--> Maybe also a +Pack command that keeps up with this number. So you can add and subtract as your pack numbers change.
*Vampire Ghouls, Bought as retainers
So maybe a command like +Upkeep Retainer/Ghoul (So it subtracts the correct amount of points + 1 BP + 1 WP).
And for PC Ghouls...
+Upkeep Ghoul/Character Name (No downtime points spent, but it subtracts 1 BP and 1 WP).

Type of Action: Uh... Actions!
-Actions are worth one point each.
-Examples - Attacking Assets, Hunting* (see below), Blackmail, Coercion, Defending a group/territory/individual for one day, Covering your actions/tracks/assets for one week.
So maybe a command like
+Action <Action Name>/. It then subtracts one point from their pool.
(Note - There are 4 types of actions that allow you to gain Allies, Contacts, Mentor, and Retainers - Blackmail, Coercion/Bribing, Socializing, and Enthralling. Enthralling costs an additional 1 BP and as an additional benefit, those that seek to attack your asset fail, unless the attack is physical and they are killed.
(Note, these must still be bought with XP but it will determine if they were successful or not in order to buy them).

*HUNTING
Hunting can be done a maximum of once a week and costs 4 points, representing a full week's hunting.
Each district has a penalty, depending on what hunting mode you use (Cassanova, Violence, or Sandman).
Each district has a certain number of BP to be drawn from. This refreshes once a week.
A penalty is added to each hunt attempt equal to number of times it has been hunted in before.
So maybe a command like
+Hunt <District>/<Mode>
The BP you get is equal to your successes.

Also... some way to compile or recall the data. x_X @Thenomain, @Sammi is using your nwod 2.0 character system so maybe you guys would have some pointers on how to manage this? Maybe send them as jobs? But after jobs are processed I'd like some way of recalling the data on their sheet somehow? Like a self updating note? Hmm not sure.

[boneghazi]

Request #2:
We are doing status differently.
You cannot buy it with XP. Instead, you buy it with Status Beats. Each dot is worth its rating x2, and must be bought in order.
SO.
Status 1 - 2 Beats
Status 2 - 4 Beats
Status 3 - 6 Beats
Status 4 - 8 Beats
Status 5 - 10 Beats.

Kindred Titles
To acquire a title, like Whip or Knight (which have a rating) you must also buy the title's rating x2.
For example, if you have Status 2 (Daeva), you must buy Status 3 with 6 Beats. To acquire a title, for example, "Whip", which is also a status 3 title, you must buy that with an additional 6 beats. (Total of 12).

Government and Law Enforcement Positions
Government positions work the same as Kindred Titles.
For Example you are a Status (Law Enforcement) 3 Assistant Sheriff, and you wish to become an Under Sheriff (Status 4), you must invest 12 beats. 6 for the 3rd dot and 6 for the title.

How To Get Status Beats?
Complete aspirations by participating in PRPs or ST run scenes.
Long-Term Aspiration - +2 Beats
Short-Term Aspiration - +1 Beats
We also need a way of subtracting beats from certain pools for doing booboos.

So. What I'd like to do is create different types of aspirations like...
General
Sphere (Academia, Law Enforcement, etc etc)...
Maybe something like +aspiration/Academia Long-Term=Blah
So that way maybe when we can "complete"this aspiration it goes into the type of pool and they can spend it automatically like +Status Academia <# of their next status rating> and it will subtract the appropriate amount from their pool. Also, same with title? +Status Daeva/Whip <#> (Where the minimum requirement would be status 3 for that title. We do have a list of titles and ratings, etc). And of course there can only be so many titles per clan/covenant/praxis... There's also a point system to strip you of title and status.

Is this possible?

[ShelBeast]

i think that the Herd/Domain/Hunting rules could prove to be both too generous and yet too restricting at the same time. I'd suggest going with simply Herd or Feeding Ground rating/week, and here's why:

I play Gangrel Greg. I have a big plot scene this week, and over the course of it I blow through like thirteen Vitae doing Protean things. I don't have much Herd, because Gangrel. I'm all about the hunt. I get some BP given back to me by this dude who holds domain through that command, and later on I hunt, but I get a crap roll. My resources for the month from the Domain are blown on this one scene. I crapped out my hunt roll for the week. By next week, I'm starving. I roll for a hunt, and get decent rolls this time, but then David Daeva goes and insults my boots, so we have a combat scene, and next thing I know, I'm all out of Vitae again, with no way to not go into torpor before next week.

Mind you, this example is deliberately a bit extreme, and also a bit vague, but the point is that over the course of a month, it's far easier to deplete resources all at once, then if those same or even less available resources are on a smaller time frame for their budget. This could very easily lead to people loosing the ability to play their characters just by sheer circumstance of the system, which is not fun.

By allowing herd/feeding grounds to refresh weekly, you do get to negate people blowing their load all at once. Also, this would average out to more like Rating X 4/month, which also makes it more precious. Restricting hunting rolls to one a week can also just prove problematic, so I'd suggest allowing them, at a cost of one "DT" point, to be done at any time. Or even maybe two or three points, if you don't want people simply throwing hunting rolls everywhere. But this also allows people to NOT have to take herd or feeding ground merits, which is thematic for many characters. Hunty Gangrels, antisocial Nossies, etc. etc.

[mietze]

I guess it depends on the goal. Do you /want/ to make resources scarce? Is the goal that PCs really can't just do whatever they want large of small at any time they want to without either a lot of non-PC resources or a bunch of PCs to feed from? (In the example given above, I'd say that part of playing a gangrel that goes balls to the wall over everything and also is going to pick fights--in other words, an awesome one--is actually riding the edge of risking torpor if he really does lose his frenzy roll or decide to go after the Daeva. I know I would +nom/recc/whatever the crap out of that person who did that. I'd still consider that them playing their PC, even if they didn't get to pull off everything they wanted without a hitch.) Or do you not want to make players choose or PCs take on risks like that solely due to mechanics? I don't think there's a right/wrong answer there, it just depends on your goals.

[Thenomain]

@nyctophiliac said:

Also... some way to compile or recall the data. x_X @Thenomain, @Sammi is using your nwod 2.0 character system so maybe you guys would have some pointers on how to manage this? Maybe send them as jobs? But after jobs are processed I'd like some way of recalling the data on their sheet somehow? Like a self updating note? Hmm not sure.

You're asking for complex external systems. My advice is to come up with a way to determine the date an action, herd, or login has taken place.

For Action and Herd, these would be the same logging system. Want to know when the last time XP was spent on Strength? That's the same logging system. When, what, and how much was used? From there, you can create a system that can either restore all the available actions/blood/ability to spend at one time (the easy way) or over time (the hard way).

Fortunately, the login time is logged, but it comes with a second issue: What if someone never logs out? If someone never logs out, how do you determine if they lose a blood point? Do you really want to alienate the people who want to always be logged in? Do you want to punish those who aren't? I don't have an answer there.

Regardless, you'd also need some kind of pool (herd blood, actions) to keep track of how many points of fill-in-blank are available. The nWoD system can do this, but you have a lookup table, a timer, and a pool stat to code.

[Ganymede]

@nyctophiliac said:

4. Downtime System.
   Works with points (WP+Sta+1) x4/ month. This refreshes monthly.
   *Vampires are assumed to have Stamina 5, as they do not get tired from physical activity.

There are many, many objections I could raise at your proposal, but this one caught my eye.

The efficacy of downtime shouldn't be tied to Stamina. That would encourage folks to dump into Stamina, which is already a damned useful trait. Since Good Time Management is Mental, I would recommend using a Mental stat here. I'd suggest using the lowest of Intelligence, Wits, and Resolve as your Attribute input.

Except that, by tying it inexplicably to Willpower, you're already getting Resolve and Composure involved.

Basically, I think you need to think this through more thoroughly. Most players log in once a day, even if they don't actually RP once a day. Think on a weekly scale, rather than a monthly one.

[boneghazi]

1. @ShelBeast / @mietze - Yeah, Blood is something that's supposed to be scarce, and we want people to manage it wisely. So, my advice would not be to blow your load. Manage it wisely.
   This is why herd and domain are important. They supplement when you cannot hunt. Even Gangrel Greg can get Domain 5 with some scenage and XP blowing.
   In cases like you mentioned and you've maxed out your hunting roll for the week and used up your herd/domain - I suggest making friends with people that hold domain, so they can give you some vitae. You'd owe some favors, but that's the way the political system works. Thusly, encouraging people to play politics. While I realize some people like to play Hunty Gangrels and Anti-social Nossies, this is a social, political game, as written in the books. It's a game of politics, and even the most anti social must play it too.

If they weren't scarce and it wasn't a manageable resource, there wouldn't be any point to monitoring the blood thing.

There are other ways, too - maybe you have NPC or IC ghoul(s). Which isn't a downtime action but should be reflected by a command, too.

Also, you won't be coming out of torpor like that unless an NPC or PC bring you out. It's just a matter of saying to someone OOC, "Hey have you got a reason to be <here> because I just got into torpor, bring me out and I'll owe you a favor?"

2. @Thenomain - We thought about simply subtracting 1 BP/24 hrs flat, but then there's a chance that someone gets sick, can't make it in for a week or two and they're in torpor. We don't really want to punish people that get unlucky like that. I actually have no problem with it, because it's assumed even if you're not logged on you're going to be waking up and doing stuff, just not notable stuff. However, I feel bad for punishing people that aren't going to be connecting every day to do something with that BP.

3. @Ganymede - We had a hard time coming up with a relevant pool that would provide adequate numbers... As for refreshing monthly, we were hoping that it would be a resource that they could manage by themselves. Okay, for example a vampire can hunt weekly and it costs 4 points as it represents a longer period of time rather than one day, it's abstracted a bit so that no one has to log in daily to hunt, but rather weekly. A vampire then needs 16 points. With lucky rolls, they won't need domain or herd or retainers or ghouls or what have you.
   With an average vampire at WP 4 + 5 + 1 = 10 x4 for the month, after hunting that leaves 24 points. Say they have Allies 2, Contacts 2, and Retainers 3. Upkeep you have to do once a month, and that would cost an additional 7 points. (This is abstracted so as long as you do it, its assumed you're doing it in the inbetween throughout the month and doesn't count towards max points spend per day.(Which in my example would be a max of 2/day)
   That leaves 17 points in which to use to politic with or, if you're a crafter or have to do anything with extended actions (with each roll costing 1 dot), well it seems like a generous enough amount to allow people to do the things they need to do on a daily basis. With GMT, that's an extra 16 points - and would only be for the people who believe in hardcore downtime actions .

If we changed it up... I can see it being (Resolve + Lower Int/Wit + 1) (lets take that total on 5). And then lets give that to them once a week. That's enough for a vampire to hunt that week, and maybe upkeep one one dot merit or do one action. They would almost absolutely HAVE to buy the good time management merit, which gives 4 points per week,

I don't mind this system, but it seems like dividing it up weekly may make it harder for those that log in less to manage.

Is there an advantage you see that I don't? I'm totally open to advice, I'm not a coder and I am open to reason, but I did think it through, I just want to see the error of my ways and I'm genuinely interested in any input.

[boneghazi]

I also realize tailoring the system towards vampires would leave other people with BOOKOOS of points, so maybe you're right @Ganymede with the less pool, weekly refresh thing.

[boneghazi]

Also, it should be noted that I will be offering remuneration to whoever takes up this project. (via PayPal)
Since @Sammi is already working on the mush, he gets first dibs.
Since @Thenomain already wrote the CG system we are using, if Sammi passes it up, he gets dibs.
If he passes it up, anyone else is welcome to apply.

I'm offering $100 US for this project. $50 paid may 1st, then $50 upon completion of the project.
Sorry it's not more - 3rd world country

[ShelBeast]

@nyctophiliac I get what your intent is, and why you're looking at it from the angle that you're looking at it from, and I am all for playing a political/social game. I only play political/social characters, because that's the game I enjoy. But...

The way your blood system would work would make certain traits/merits absolutely mandatory. Herd would not be an optional merit, basically. It'd be a necessary trait to have. Same with Feeding Grounds. It also limits/restricts the kinds of scenes that can be run, because... well, you suggest people not blow their load. Big action heavy scenes making load blowing a near necessity, so you have to keep things low key so you don't have like 5 vamps going into torpor.

Also, having to owe someone a boon just to make your character still playable due to nothing but pure mechanical restrictions is... not fun. I strongly encourage the idea of finding ways to make people interact with prestation and all that, but not to the extent that it means I can't play my character without it.

[boneghazi]

Do you have any suggestions on how to fix it? How would you do it then?

[ShelBeast]

@nyctophiliac Well, like I said, previously, for most of the stuff I'd focus on weekly refreshes, rather than monthly, but massively scaled down, as well. I think I had suggested before about using Herd rating weekly, which would actually reduce the number of Vitae that a vampire has access per month, but space it out so that it's distributed in a more manageable level. Same with Domain/Feeding Grounds.

Let people hunt as many times per week as they can afford, by assigning that hunting a cost in their DT points. This has the built in offset that, if they're blowing through blood and needing to hunt a bunch? They're not going to be able to do much of the other stuff that the system allows for. Which will set them back on things like being able to get more Domain/Status/What-have-you. It's, in many ways, a self-policing system that still keeps vitae as a valuable and necessary resource to be considerate of when spending it, but it does make it harder for the system to unintentionally screw over the PC and render them unplayable. Is it foolproof? Not in the slightest. Gangrel Greg can still wind up running himself out of vitae, sucking on his hunting rolls and still wind up in the same boat. But the chance of that happening is minimized.

It's all about finding a balance between scarcity and playability. I don't want to be too discouraging, as I think you're really on a very good track and really have the right ideas in mind with what you're looking to achieve. I look forward to checking things out once you've gotten it all up and running, for sure.

[Ganymede]

@nyctophiliac said:

With an average vampire at WP 4 + 5 + 1 = 10 x4 for the month, after hunting that leaves 24 points.

That roughly translates into 6 DP per week. To make the system simpler, I'd take the lowest of Intelligence, Wits, and Resolve, and add 3. Or, as you suggested, Resolve + Lowest of Intelligence and Wits + 1, whichever.

Say they have Allies 2, Contacts 2, and Retainers 3. Upkeep you have to do once a month, and that would cost an additional 7 points.

You could remove upkeep entirely too. It's an added, unnecessary complication.

Herd

Have a separate +hunt/herd command that deducts DP per use, like +hunt, but does not log where the PC hunts, unlike the +hunt code. And, simply, the +hunt code would use the Herd Merit to determine the number of dice rolled.

[ShelBeast]

@Ganymede You saying making Herd a rolled stat? That sort of negates the definition of Herd, which is "stable, steady blood supply". I do totally agree with it requiring some DT to use, though. You need to put in time with your blood dolls in order to get them tasty snacks.

[Ganymede]

@ShelBeast said:

You saying making Herd a rolled stat? That sort of negates the definition of Herd, which is "stable, steady blood supply". I do totally agree with it requiring some DT to use, though. You need to put in time with your blood dolls in order to get them tasty snacks.

I suppose it could be a pool that recharges over time; let's say 1 point per 24 hours. And using +hunt/herd <number> means drawing <number> from that pool. And, again, the use of +hunt/herd is not recorded.

But, if so, then having Herd 1 negates the blood-loss that is supposed to press people into politics.

Nah, I'd make +hunt/herd a roll, which means that there's a chance that you'll fail to find someone in your Herd that can give you some blood without falling dead.

[Groth]

@Thenomain said:

Fortunately, the login time is logged, but it comes with a second issue: What if someone never logs out? If someone never logs out, how do you determine if they lose a blood point? Do you really want to alienate the people who want to always be logged in? Do you want to punish those who aren't? I don't have an answer there.

1. Create a character attribute that determines if someone has paid their daily upkeep or not.
2. Set up a daily timer that A) Unflags every character, B) Charges every currently logged in character and C) Flags every logged in character as having paid.
3. Write a login trigger that A) Checks for the presence of the upkeep flag. B) Charges upkeep if it is not present. C) Flags as having paid upkeep.

Requiem for Kingsmouth contains code that handles everything that @nyctophiliac wants to do but it's not necessarily easy to navigate. https://github.com/ccubed/RFK

I advice using SQL for logging purposes.

[ShelBeast]

@Ganymede Nah. Not refresh every day. Every week. Even if you have Herd 5, that's two days you're without blood every week from the herd. Mind you, the tabletop rules for it are two blood for every dot of Herd per week. Which is just ridiculous, really. Get 3 Herd and never need to worry about Blood again, unless you go into the thick of things in some way. But having it refresh a point a day makes it... yeah... negates the blood loss, altogether.

[boneghazi]

@Groth I did take a lot of inspiration from them, but a lot of their system seems needlessly complicated. I may have to look into this anyway!

[Thenomain]

@nyctophiliac said:

@Thenomain - We thought about simply subtracting 1 BP/24 hrs flat, but then there's a chance that someone gets sick, can't make it in for a week or two and they're in torpor. We don't really want to punish people that get unlucky like that. I actually have no problem with it, because it's assumed even if you're not logged on you're going to be waking up and doing stuff, just not notable stuff. However, I feel bad for punishing people that aren't going to be connecting every day to do something with that BP.

You know, why not tie this into the activity system? For every 3 activity points, you must spend 1 activity point to keep yourself fed? Something like that. I do not have precise numbers, but it is a way to track offline activity.

Or you could say something like: 1 free activity point will cover 3 offline days for feeding. Someone who is gone past the refresh time for their activity points will always have at least 2 free points per week, covering their offline time.

Thoughts.

[Thenomain]

Double post, to nerd over data storage:

@Groth said:

I advice using SQL for logging purposes.

I advise only using SQL for logging purposes if your coder can easily handle it. As the information is only important for that character bit, then keeping it on the character is fine, especially if you only need to keep information about the most recent event. If you want to keep a deeper log, then believe it or not MUX has a way to log to and read from an arbitrary text file. Use this as a NoSQL setup, or as a way to collect information until you can create a proper SQL schema.