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    Posts made by acceleration

    • RE: What do RPGs *never* handle in mu*'s? What *should* they handle?

      This topic is one I've been thinking quite a bit about lately! I'm glad to see it show up here. It's giving me tons of food for thought 🙂

      1. Tabletop vs MU*

      Tabletops are like braiding a rope. There is a limited set of main characters and generally only one person controlling the environment. Unless you have materials that just completely don't work together, you can get something passable in the end without too much effort.

      MU*s are like weaving a tapestry. Each person has an individual thread (or two, or three, or five), all of different lengths, and no one can agree on a color scheme or which corner to start from. Without excellent management and defined borders, it's bound to devolve into a mess of rainbow vomit. On the other hand, with that much going into it, you can get some pretty fucking awesome designs, too.

      Tabletops are a much more controlled environment from the outset, so you know more or less what you're getting via knowing who you're playing with (or getting to know them via playing). MU*s are always changing and have great capacity for surprise. So with that in mind....

      2. Social Dice vs. Physical Dice in a MU*

      If a system has a social dice system, my view is PCs should not be exempted from it on the sole account of being PCs. It's better to either take the social dice and throw them out the window completely (which some systems do), or accept the dice as part of the system.

      Here's an example of social dice used well as part of a tabletop game:

      In a recent episode of Critical Role (a DnD 5e game played over a Twitch stream), a PC had his very rare and valuable flying broom stolen by another PC.

      To deal with the theft, both players had to roll, one to steal, the other to detect. Then the thief's player rolled a bluff check to lie about where the broom went, and the victim rolled to detect the bluff. The victim failed both, so the thief got away with the broom scot free.

      This is a pretty simple transaction between two players who were friendly (or friendly enough) OOCly. But if you threw the social dice out the window, half of it would be up in the air mechanically, and in a PVP MU* specifically, this interaction might have baited out some OOC drama with some particularly sore losers because the dice would have left an opening for it.

      When social dice don't exist:

      I have played RPIs that did not make use of social skills. The only social skills built into these types of games were essentially solely used for hiding and eavesdropping, which had all sorts of interesting repercussions. Social interaction was not governed by other skills and entirely left to the wits of the players. In these cases, however, staff NPCs being socially influenced was a rarity; in RPIs, much of the NPC stuff tends to be governed by code to essentially run shops, drop snippets of coded gossip/quest bait, or act as killables. Staff pulling out NPCs that were sentient and could be affected by negotiation of some sort didn't tend to need social code, rules or dice to play them out.

      In the cases of these games, everything that had physical effects was solved by dice: combat, sneaking, thievery, assassination, magic (if applicable), and crafting. Everything else was left to RP. Game balance was designed around social interaction being ruled by something other than dice.

      Social dice that exist but are not used well:

      In many WoD-type MU*s, PVP social dice being nonexistent is often justified by an anti-creep policy. My opinion is this has the side effect of marginalizing social PCs in general. Unless a sphere has a powerful skill branch that makes use of social dice, that category is going to get dumped by a lot of people, because they can't really make use of it in general play. In addition, social resistance merits get dumped even more, because they're essentially worthless when you're hardly ever going to be defending against a social attack. If you're new to WoD MU*s and roll a social character, chances are high you'll never be able to display what your PC was optimized for unless you find the right ST.

      Of course, these sort of policies tend to be pretty general, too. Players may roll the aforementioned subterfuge vs. empathy check anyway and staff might not care even if the lie was something completely bald-faced, like, "A unicorn ate your broom." However, they might draw the line at using persuasion to follow the 'unicorn ate your broom' line with 'and you need to give me your wallet so I can try to go buy it back.' Or, they might only draw the line if you then try a persuasion check to use the line, 'And you need to go home with me or else the world will end!!!'

      WoD specifically is balanced to have primary, secondary and tertiary fields, but there's an advantage to playing a primarily physical PC in many setups, and to a lesser extent a mental PC, because of the research/crafting component. Socially powerful PCs certainly do exist, but very often it's in tandem with some particularly sweet sphere-specific powers that rely on social dice.

      I realize this is not the case in all games. AFAIK, I think Requiem for Kingsmouth(?) had a built-in system for taking advantage of PCs with social skills, which I think is awesome. This is the only example off the top of my head of a game where social dice existed and were used to any effective extent.

      3. Non-consent vs. Consent vs. Freeform RP

      What's the dividing line between letting something physical be ruled by dice, but not something social? Particularly when physical dice can often have social ramifications? What's the difference between being thrown bodily in a basement and tortured for the location of a macguffin, vs. being bought a few drinks and letting it slip because the charming and pretty person next to you asked nicely?

      I understand that many people do draw a line there, but I think it has less to do with the existence of social dice than a consent issue. In the above scenario, without the existence of social dice, a certain type of RPer would say 'I control the emotional impact of this!' and simply not let anything slip because they're too badass to suffer from pain.

      4. The Importance of a Well-Defined Ruleset, Setting and Reducing the Sandbox Syndrome

      Part of the reason I feel the way I do about social dice is because wiggle room with the rules and mechanics can lead to serious abuse. It's fine if everyone's in it to have fun and everyone accepts the same amount of wiggle room, whether it's for or against their PC, but that's never going to be the case in a large scale game of strangers who play from behind computer screens.

      Defining the consent level, setting and ruleset in clear terms reduces confusion. In a tabletop setting the ST would be guiding the process the whole way through. In a MU*, staff simply can't be around 24/7 to simulate the same experience. I believe RPI MUDs tend to compensate by having scripted mobiles and much more emphasis on PVP. MU*s seem to prefer the player ST route, but this can get problematic with player STs not playing true to setting, or otherwise not running arcs that are big enough in scope to be any more than a one-shot.

      When players are reduced to a sandbox setting, they tend to get bored and move away. Players have very limited power to change the world, so their storylines tend to stall out without major events to frame them around.

      .... that's about as far as I've gotten in working this through my own head. Putting together a MU* is hard. Respect to those who manage to complete them.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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    • RE: [Poll in OP] Population Code

      @Roz
      I like it too and will be trying to work it into our game as a suggested guideline/default to be used, particularly with any crossing individual storylines. If your friend was murdered in the snow and the killer left footprints and a bloody trail in it then you probably shouldn't be RPing it's 65 and sunny, etc.

      I think there's definitely some culture clash in those who view RP mu*s as sandboxes and those who don't, but I guess as long as it's all established via the rules when you sign up everything should be okay.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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    • RE: [Poll in OP] Population Code

      @Roz
      For a custom fantasy setting, weather ambience is probably more important/likeable. For a real world setting I can understand the complaints about RP being put off by the seasonal blizzard or whatever, but at the same time I think playing to the setting is important and that trying to use a standard of weather can help maintain tone and consistency across all the individual storylines in any given mu*.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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    • RE: [Poll in OP] Population Code

      @Roz
      This sounds interesting. How did it work exactly? Did it use a real world setting/weather reading?

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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    • RE: [Poll in OP] Population Code

      @ThatOneDude said in Population Code:

      What if you just +weather/set or +time/set for the room...?

      This is what I had in mind. Basically, a room default, + the option to set if you have a PRP or vampires in the room or want to RP in the sunshine but game time is 3 in the morning, and the game would automatically load a range of NPCs in the area and security level/police response time (based on population/likelihood of reporting) for that area.

      This isn't meant to be hard and fast, it's just a tool that might help players. On the other hand, I do see +weather code go ignored as a standard plenty, even though I myself try to incorporate it as I would the current moon phase unless I have specific reason to ignore it. I don't know if this is because it requires a command to view in most cases or whether or not it being a default in room display would make a difference to RP. I guess as a starter project it's not a bad place to start, so I'll probably do it anyway.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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    • RE: [Poll in OP] Population Code

      @Thenomain said in Population Code:

      This is why my answer was convoluted. Before I can say if I'd use it, I'd want to know what it's useful for or, at least, an overview of how it works. I can see the footer for a room not only having a location's security ("Poor"), but its current population ("~7 NPCs here").

      Yeah, that's basically all I want, something pretty simple that'll track the current scene time, default to standard game time when no PCs are in the room/no one has specifically set anything, and give a rough population and safety level.

      I'm not really asking as a coder, I'm just asking if, as a player, people would incorporate the results of their code into their roleplay, or if they'd prefer to set all that stuff themselves.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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    • RE: [Poll in OP] Population Code

      @faraday
      I think (possibly) it depends on implementation, but that sentiment is why I'm ambivalent about even trying this to begin with. My thoughts for implementation are putting more emphasis on a direct in-room display of population, resource level and safety level and limiting description porn to 2-3 lines, but RP-wise I'm not sure how that would be taken.

      That's why I put a straw poll up! But only two people have voted in it 😛

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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    • RE: [Poll in OP] Population Code

      @icanbeyourmuse

      Yes, it's a pretty simple thing that could potentially get kind of complicated and I'm currently wondering if it's worth the effort to build, hence asking whether or not people would take advantage of it. There are plenty of ways to make it extremely simple, like requiring flat numbers from players when they submit business builds, but having it formula based would allow for some flexibility like limiting size based on grid location to a PC owner's resource dots.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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    • RE: [Poll in OP] Population Code

      @Thenomain

      I would like it to but I haven't really worked out how to do it, and I imagine it would be highly dependent on how you built your grid. I guess if I could figure it out, it'd take street type (side street vs main street vs avenue vs freeway), income level of the district and time of day into account and print something out based on that. I guess it doesn't have to be an automatic display.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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    • RE: [Poll in OP] Population Code

      In this specific instance it'd be for a mush-like, and it would not be particularly specific, just basically something like max capacity of 50, has anywhere from 3-10 NPCs (when it's dead) to 20-30 (when the rush comes in) to 40-50 (special events). There could be a way to build time of day into it, but I think that might be needlessly complicated in a mush environment given in-game time isn't always the time it is in the scene. Story-wise, there's RP benefit to saying 'this is a public place, there are definitely witnesses and probably about this many if you're here at x time', but probably much less RP benefit to 'no, you can't have a table because it's study hour at the local university, take your business elsewhere, you pricks'.

      Edit: is there not a way to build a poll here?

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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    • [Poll in OP] Population Code

      Out of curiosity, because I've been putzing this idea around in my head, how many of you would take advantage of population code if it existed?

      That is to say, for businesses built on a grid, if they provided hours of operation and a fire code maximum capacity, to basically build a formula that will give a numerical range of NPCs in the area, further subdivided by whether or not the locals are the type likely to call police or pull a shotgun on you?

      Would you guys work that into your roleplay and/or find it beneficial? Or would you just ignore it?

      Edit: Straw Poll

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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    • RE: Finding roleplay

      @Pyrephox

      Getting tied up in details that don't move a story along (by tossing out false information that doesn't go anywhere, putting players in a dead end or getting sidetracked by semi-relevant tangents) really seem to happen quite often, but I don't think it's specific to jobs so much as people who handle jobs tend to get into a rubber stamp, super mechanical mentality, or are those types of people naturally to begin with.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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    • RE: Finding roleplay

      @Arkandel
      I think it really depends on what's happening in those public scenes. I'm going to be honest here and say I haven't read through the entire thread, so forgive me if I've missed anything or this has already been said. Specifically to answer your question:

      I don't find incentivizing social scenes to be beneficial to finding roleplay. Your run of the mill coffee shop/bar/party RP isn't really particularly interesting and I see no reason to reward it with experience gain. Yeah, social scenes help you meet new characters, but is there any particular drive to seek out a character you talked about the weather and local sports with? Does it add anything other than a dimension of 'oh hey I recognize that guy' if you happen to run into them again? A +vote system, diminishing returns or not, isn't really an adequate substitute for RP creation.

      Stuff that specifically drives a plotline (aspirations, if done correctly, or condition resolution, same) is what should be rewarded. Given the choice I'd probably want to reward conflict-driving aspirations with double beats or something along those lines. If 'start a bar brawl' or 'steal a wallet' is on your aspiration list and you fulfill it in some manner that creates in-game plot? You should definitely get extra beats for it. We're actually considering an +asp/conflict system for our game precisely for that purpose.

      Incentivizing making stuff happen is what should be rewarded. This can be done from a player level or from an ST level. See above for player stuff.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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    • RE: Finding roleplay

      @mietze
      Dramatic audiencing is an excellent term for exactly what I've seen way too much of. There's a danger as staff of getting way too excited about your own plot and forgetting that great plots need to be interactive and players should have as much control over their direction as the ST does.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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    • RE: PVP games/elements?

      @Volund

      Oh no! I'm sorry to hear that. There's no hurry on this, of course. I hope your RL gets better soon 😞

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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    • RE: PVP games/elements?

      @Lithium

      I don't know what RIFT is, but I assume the issue is basically one of potential staff busywork.

      Automating as much of the mechanical process is on our to do list. We're currently doing as much non-code-essential stuff as possible (getting lore and mechanical systems worked out) so we can move to Evennia's Python-driven stuff when @Volund gets his Penn>Evennia port finished. Job drudgery isn't anyone's idea of fun and reducing as much of that type of work as possible is definitely on our list.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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    • RE: PVP games/elements?

      @somasatori

      Really, any ideas you have for giving social and intellectual characters a leg up in a PVP environment would be welcome. Neither @ThatOneDude nor I have typically been big into politicking in games like these, so I'm not sure what kind of models tend to actually work for them.

      @Derp

      Bottlenecking via requiring staff approval is a troublesome model. We don't want to discourage PK that may happen as a result of escalation. That's why we ended up with the rules we've written out so far.

      That would be these, for reiteration:

      • No PK until your PC has been active for a certain amount of time. I'm thinking from somewhere between 2-4 weeks of activity. I'm also leaning toward a no alts policy, only backup characters, but that's still under discussion.
      • Any premeditated murder needs to be declared to staff via a job at least 24 in advance.
      • Non-premeditated first time altercations between any two characters can only result in beat downs.
      • You can kill in self-defense. Yes, that would mean you could be provoked into a fight that could end in your death! That's the risk you take by swinging first.

      In a conflict-oriented MU* we expect some form of troublemaking. That's part of the point of opening up a game that encourages PVP as a large part of the game's build, and part of the point of declaring it to be this type of game outright-- so that people who find they don't enjoy the ups and downs of investing a character who will eventually be killed can avoid it and go elsewhere.

      Of course, an extended nemesis storyline is also something we'd like to encourage! I've bounced the idea of some sort of declared nemesis system off @ThatOneDude to some extent as well, but it's something that's still under discussion. A lot of these systems are, because it turns out building your own MU* is pretty tough... but that aside, what I would ideally like to do is give small beat bonuses or willpower back in a manner similar to awarding for fulfilling a vice/virtue. Do something in line with your nemesis storyline at the expense of another of your character's goals, get rewarded for it somehow.

      The troublemakers who can't distinguish between IC and OOC will end up needing staff intervention, no doubt. As neither @ThatOneDude nor I are particularly patient people, we'd probably just give them one warning and then ban them.

      Edit: (Forgot to add, again)

      With regard to combat systems, naturally we have to make sure everyone is playing fair if PK is involved. Beat downs are something that can be shrugged off to some extent, but PK definitely can't be and would require some sort of staff or neutral presence to oversee the dice unless all parties agree to go forward without a moderator. Haven't worked out a perfect solution to that yet, either.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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    • RE: PVP games/elements?

      @somasatori

      I like your metaplot idea and really want to incorporate elements like that into play. However, metaplot stuff is once again ST intensive, and @ThatOneDude and I are both in the States, so anything we run will end up being limited hours and not globally friendly. Also, we don't want only action scenes and combat-oriented players.

      PVP is great, but it doesn't need to only take place with combat dice. I want to see social and intellectual characters have strong impact on the game as well. To that end I'm considering some sort of territory and politics system, but haven't figured out a good model yet either.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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    • RE: PVP games/elements?

      Hi,

      I'm @ThatOneDude's friend in question and we've been having this discussion for a couple of weeks. You guys have given some really cool feedback so far and we're basically trying to figure out how we would set this up and balance it.

      So, first, what we like about WoD, or rather, what we envision it to be:

      We like playing in this universe because we enjoy the danger that comes from being pushed into corners, badassery, politicking, backstabbing and genuinely dark elements that come with the genre. We want death and destruction, conspiracies (not Conspiracies, though those too), and struggle, but we also want to see character growth, heroism, and redeeming qualities. We love complexity, dark moments alongside humorous moments, and the question of 'What is it to be human?' that great stories can put out there.

      The easiest way to do this would just be to run a tabletop with a few friends. I'm pro-this, but @ThatOneDude has rightly pointed out that MU*s offer the benefit of being able to really expand who you play with, which makes for great dynamics. But of course, putting everything into the hands of the players turns things into a sandbox, which typically isn't that interesting.

      So, we've basically broken this down into several issues, but the main one is:

      We need a metaplot.

      The reason we all RP is because we enjoy a good interactive story, right? If the main goal was to run around and get to level 99, or to give you an alternate identity and social life, there are plenty of games out there that can accomplish it without us putting in all the effort of setting a game like this up.

      However, running a metaplot is incredibly staff-intensive, which is likely to lead to burnout, particularly if the game gets bigger than we can plan for. Since no one's getting paid to run a game, we can't be around 24/7 to make stuff happen.

      To take some of the pressure off, we'd like to:

      1. Build as much lore infrastructure as possible that can be taken advantage of by PRP-runners.

      More established lore, more pre-written NPCs and/or NPC templates at specific levels, and possibly a few 'stock plots' that can be retold and spun differently to have different effects on the landscape. My personal feeling is the more that's clearly written about the universe, the less likely it is people may run PRPs that are too unbelievable for the world, as well as make them easier to spot.

      However, we understand PRPs have different quality levels and that providing XP bonuses for running them tends to lead to 4/5 of them being super railroad plots, monster-of-the-weeks which have no lasting impact, or becoming scenes indistinguishable from a social scene with a news bulletin at the end.

      What's the solution to this? Well, we could force staff to read all the logs... but see above where this can't be our 24/7 job. So here's our working solution to that. Instead of giving a flat amount of beats and a checklist, we think we'd like to require basically 1-3 line answers to the following questions:

      • Give a short summary (1-3 lines) of the plot.
      • Who took the biggest risk in your plot? What was it? Did it pay off?
      • Did any of your players take any surprising actions with their characters? What were they?
      • Did any of your players manage to alter the direction you were going with this scene through IC action? How?
      • Did this scene give your players any subsequent hooks for investigation into a bigger plot?

      A flat amount of beats can be awarded to players as per the book rules, but I'm thinking giving small beat bonuses for risks taken by characters, particularly ones with negative consequences, is a decent model. I also think that putting STs into the mindset of moving stories along instead of checking beats off is a better recipe. We really would like to reward quality rather than quantity.

      We want player STs to be able to influence the world, albeit possibly in limited ways. There's inherent possible unfairness that can come into running plots that specifically benefit your friends, for example. We haven't worked out exactly how to handle that yet, and it ties quite a bit into part B of this issue.

      1. Encourage PVP in order to allow players to drive the plot themselves.

      This one is hazier. Both @ThatOneDude and I love the dynamics that come from PVP. We've had some great times fighting each other ourselves, in fact! To us, player conflict is a valuable experience, but we know it often leads to OOC drama, and where there's OOC drama, well, there's the Hog Pit. So re: preventative measures, here's what we have so far:

      • No PK until your PC has been active for a certain amount of time. I'm thinking from somewhere between 2-4 weeks of activity. I'm also leaning toward a no alts policy, only backup characters, but that's still under discussion.
      • Any premeditated murder needs to be declared to staff via a job at least 24 in advance.
      • Non-premeditated first time altercations between any two characters can only result in beat downs.
      • You can kill in self-defense. Yes, that would mean you could be provoked into a fight that could end in your death! That's the risk you take by swinging first.

      Of course, we will also declare that we want to be pro-player-conflict and discourage whining so as to prevent staff burnout. Them's the breaks, if you can't handle the heat, get out of the kitchen, etc. etc.

      Edit: (I forgot to write this part)

      We also want to reward PVP, of course. And risk-taking in general! Therefore I'm for giving some sort of XP bonus for dying in a scene, but this too is mechanically very hazy. @ThatOneDude pointed out to me that large XP disparities between characters means stronger characters tend to snowball while weak characters can easily be picked off. This is why he's for reducing XP to 50% upon death, where I'm more pro-XP cap. More stuff that needs to be worked out that we haven't found a good solution to yet. Suggestions are welcome.

      posted in Mildly Constructive
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    • RE: WoD MUSH Comparison?

      I am. Just not on Eldritch. There's a lot about the construct of the game I just find hard to get into.

      posted in MU Questions & Requests
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