@faraday Oh, interesting. Just goes to show how limited my background is.
Then I guess the more accurate thesis statement is: there are structural or intrinsic reasons why, even (or especially) if a MU includes dice-rolling to resolve physical conflict between players, it shouldn't include dice-rolling to resolve social conflict between players.
@faraday Sorry, my post may have been confusing. I agree with you. I don't think there's a problem with social stats on PvE (like tabletop) games; I just figure most MUs aren't strictly PvE due to the nature of the medium, which makes social stats a bad fit. If that makes sense.
@faraday Just to follow up on your point, though it may have been discussed elsewhere and I missed it: social stats would (and do) definitely work on a primarily PvE game. But if a MU's RP focuses more on player interaction than staff hosting scenes -- and most do -- then there's always an imbalance: physical attacks work on both PCs and NPCs, and if social attacks only work on NPCs, physical attacks are "better" or have more overall utility. And that in turn affects the relative value of stat points and the fairness of the system.
The point being that, while of course a lot comes down to player attitude and temperament, structural or inherent imbalances can make the difference too.
@arkandel That seems to complete the best argument for why there shouldn't be social stats on MUs. The results of "social combat" are generally more ambiguous than the results of physical damage, if they're effective they tend to risk violating player agency (partly due to said ambiguity), and if they're ineffective they're not worth advancing.
I'm used to a combat-focused game where there are no social stats and I've often wondered if social stats make for more intriguing or varied RPed conflict resolution, but it's these reasons that convince me that stats can't be the answer.
We're kicking off the New Year with some of the highest activity numbers we've ever seen on MotM. Here are some of the events currently running:
WORLD WARRIOR: The famous tournament from the Street Fighter series has returned, hosted by the towering elite Wolfgang Krauser, who seeks only the mightiest participants. To join, you have one month to challenge one of his subordinates -- the ninja Eiji Kisaragi, the swordsman Laurence Blood, or the kenpo master Gato Futaba -- and defeat them to prove your strength. Many high-powered characters who could feasibly qualify for this tournament are still available!
THE TAISHOKAN: The Gear known as Justice's nuclear assault on Mt. Fuji broke powerful seals and undid centuries of carefully crafted sorcery. Now, the severed remnants of an ancient sealed monster are stirring. Its mouth whispers lies and secrets; its eye sees all; its brain foresees the future. Monster hunters are in high demand in the wake of the failed Gear invasion of Japan, and their greatest challenge is beginning to reveal itself. (For the duration of the plot, hosting monster attacks for other players using the minion system grants you bonus Advancement Points.)
GOLDEN ANGEL TOURNAMENT: In lighter news, the hottest new product to hit stores is Golden Angel, a lotion that when applied somehow transforms into a spandex-like material of flattering color and design, creating on-the-spot swimsuits or exercise gear. (Don't blame me, blame BlazBlue.) To advertise this miraculous item and raise Southtown's spirits after coming so close to destruction, the company producing it has collaborated with a local charity organization to host a tournament for up-and-coming fighters. Fights are hosted every two weeks -- participants may join mid-tournament -- and comedy-themed open social 'party' scenes are hosted every weekend for the next four weeks. This is a perfect opportunity for new original characters to make their debut!
But this only scratches the surface of the active plot. The Novus Ordis Librarium has risen to prominence in the wake of the veritable collapse of the United Nations; it moves to defend the people from supernatural threats and secure all magical artifacts for its own purposes. The aftereffects of the thunder god Raiden's abortive great flood are still being felt in bizarre weather phenomena across the globe. There are rumors that a no-man's-land has emerged at the intersection of Switzerland, Austria, and northern Italy, a place that was once the ancient kingdom of Illyria, and the Sacred Order of Holy Knights -- having lost the support of the United Nations and the Vatican -- plan to investigate. Green fire burns in a dark forest of Japan and sucks the life out of that which approaches it.
Challenges both mundane and mystical face our characters. Strength, cunning, and wisdom all are needed to surmount them. To those interested in any of these themes or threads, or who just want to get in on a very active game, check us out!
http://motm.kicks-ass.net/ port 2002
@shelbeast I'm informed that the game will be down until power is restored in GA.
EDIT: Game's back up.
Hmm. But in none of the tournaments post-reboot (in the last 3 years) have the highest-Ratio characters on the game triumphed. For example, Mortal Kombat was won by an R4 and Rumble in the Streets was won by an R3. Team tournaments like King of Fighters are partly Ratio-balanced by how many high Ratio characters can be included on a team. I can't think of an example of the rigidity you're describing. Perhaps you can be more specific?
I would say that you have an outdated view of the game, but I've never known the game to be as you describe. MotM is structured around randomized dice rolls, actively chosen reactions, and active abilities: the depth of the combat system is predicated on the player's capacity to manage risk without ever fully determining outcome. Character stats are not public but Ratio is not a secret: you as a player consent to fight up-Ratio when and if you want to, though again, Ratio does not seem to determine the outcome of tournaments.
If you're interested in revising your opinion of the game, you're welcome to app the highest-Ratio characters around and see for yourself if you easily win every fight ... though I'm not sure how much fun that would be!
And if you're not interested in revising your opinion of the game, please see this thread instead: http://musoapbox.net/topic/1859/match-of-the-millennium-s-reputation
I'm much more used to hearing the opposite complaint when people experience upsets because they were crit unexpectedly, or had their ultimate attack parried, or whiffed an 80% chance counter, or didn't realize the other player was manipulating their "check" display to trick them into choosing sub-optimal reactions, or ...
But I think you're referring to the Ratio system. For those who don't know, on MotM, characters have established power levels between 1 and 6 that don't fluctuate except through advancement. For example, hypothetically, Ryu might be Ratio 4, his student Sakura might be Ratio 2, and Vega (AKA Dictator, or M. Bison in the West) might be Ratio 6. It's difficult but feasible for someone to beat an opponent one Ratio higher, but very difficult to beat an opponent two Ratios higher. So it's very unlikely that Sakura can defeat Ryu on her own without training, and it's very unlikely that Ryu can defeat Vega on his own, but together, Sakura and Ryu are a tossup against Vega, which would be a pretty dramatic fight.
Some people don't like these set power differentials and the kind of RP it produces. Speaking personally for a moment, I don't like the opposite scenario, where everyone's power level is basically the same, there is little concrete incentive for advancement, and villains only become strong on the spot via an arbitrary "bossmode." Certainly, your mileage may vary.
But while the Ratio system still exists, you may want to check out post-reboot (as of 3 years ago) MotM for three reasons:
Rebalancing. The spectrum of Ratios has been dramatically tightened. The majority of characters are R2 or R3, peaking at R4. No one beats anyone 10 times out of 10, but Ryu and Guile and Cody and Hakan are all fairly close in power level today, so each one of those hypothetical matchups are reasonable tossups.
Minions. If you're playing a low-ratio villain and you want to pick fights with more people, you may spawn minions as a substitute for bossmode to pad your Ratio. Minions allow any character to threaten any other character in principle and can turn any encounter into a fair fight.
Advancement. The AP system is infinitely preferable to the relatively arbitrary advancement system of the past. Every scene you do earns you points not just toward increasing your stats (and Ratio), but earning you incremental Ability Ranks and Traits that can tweak your character and round out your tactical options.
If you're unfamiliar with these changes, why not check out the game again? You may find it's not what you predict. 
Update: The epic King of Fighters 2017 plot culminates this month. Meanwhile, the full roster of BlazBlue and Guilty Gear characters has been completely integrated, and the machinations of the Novus Orbis Librarium promise to pave the way to the next plot. Half of the 32-strong BlazBlue cast has already been swiftly snapped up, but there are still plenty to app and OCs are always an option if you'd like to join this new thriving faction!
Check out our website at http://motm.kicks-ass.net or log on at motm.kicks-ass.net:2002 to see the current roster and available characters, and if you'd like help developing an OC concept or CSYS build, just ask on +guest!
@shaggy Haha. Yeah, that's fair. It's just the only game I'm aware of where professional wrestling roleplay actually happens.
A game devoted exclusively to professional wrestling RP would be interesting. You'd be RPing an RPer, effectively. There are pro-wrestling OCs on MotM, but the difference is that, implicitly, in "real life" the pro-wrestlers are also legitimate fighters on par with the fireball-throwers. I can see how that wouldn't necessarily scratch the same itch.
@shaggy I'm a broken record when promoting the only MU I currently play but
No one's currently playing Zangief on Match of the Millennium
Or Haggar, or Rainbow Mika, or the Slam Masters characters ...
I'm just sayin'...
Normally, when you role-play characters having a date, you do so through diceless RP: whatever you think your character would believably do, they'll do. If you're on a game with social stats like Charisma, maybe you'll roll some dice for a persuasion check (which obviously must never outweigh player consent). But in my limited experience, there's little need for the system to get more complex than that. Dice are rolled if there is a contest between people. If there isn't a contest, no dice are rolled. Anything more would get in the way of the fun or just get weird.
I'm pondering a different sort of system designed entirely to facilitate silly romantic comedy RP between characters who might not ICly flirt: a system that does not just adjudicate contests but tells you, "Was this date a 'success'?"
The reason is that on MotM, we have a complex combat system and no social stats. But there is a series of dating simulations called Days of Memories (http://snk.wikia.com/wiki/Days_of_Memories) that uses fighting game characters, and there's a recurring joke on the game that we'll have a Days of Memories plot and temporarily use an "LSYS" to parody the CSYS. I'm thinking seriously about what this ridiculous LSYS would look like and I'd like some suggestions, because I'm not very good at game design.
Conceptually, I'd like the LSYS to be able to handle a variety of encounters. For example:
These examples show that even if this is a parody of a combat system, it can't be a direct parallel to a combat system: it's not necessarily adversarial. And even when it is adversarial and neither party wants to date, it's still possible for the date to "fail" (which is what the characters want) or "succeed" (which is what they don't want). Again, while characters may end up having feelings they didn't expect or want to feel, nothing can happen without players' consent: the fun (and the comedy) is in explaining how seemingly nonsensical stuff can happen.
So instead of conceiving of the date as a contest between characters, I'm thinking of it as individuals taking turns applying stats to "challenges" that arise, where successes are likely to be "impressive" to the observing party and failures are ... not. Characters don't have to feel impressed by their partner succeeding at a challenge, but if enough successes are accumulated, the date becomes a "success" and the presumption becomes 1) both characters feel a bit more positively toward each other in some way and 2) whoever accumulated the most successes was the most impressive, and the outcome should more resemble what that character was going for.
To determine what these stats are, I looked to the obvious place: Pokemon Beauty Contest. There the stats are Coolness, Cuteness, Beauty, Cleverness, and Toughness. Perfect, right? I'm thinking the flow of the "date" would go something like:
Would this work as a game to be RPed out? It's a joke, obviously, and not meant to be used for Serious Business Seduction RP. But would it be fun as a joke? Is there enough room for player interpretation of how their character feels while still producing entertaining surprises? Could it be made less clunky or more streamlined? Is there a better and clearer way for characters to be interacting with each other and affecting the results? (Should players have to switch up which stats they use over the course of the date, for instance?)
If anyone's interested, by all means let me know what you think.
I'd never heard of it until someone said that it was an inspiration for MotM's Street Fighter centric CSYS. (It's a rumor and may have been a joke, but it got me curious about the tabletop system.) Never played with it, but seems cool.
Thanks to the new players who've apped and joined! Just a quick update: our current plot has gathered steam and so far 60 characters are signed up for the next round of scenes, with November 1st being the sign-up deadline. Apps are being approved same-day and it's easy to get involved, so if you're curious, come check us out.
Also, if you're interested but you don't have much experience with fighting games, you could consider emphasizing the modern-day supernatural angle of the game's theme. The integration of the Darkstalkers series means that werewolf, ghoul, vampire, or otherwise monstrous characters are appable. If you get a character idea along those lines (just in time for Halloween) poke around and staff can surely help.
@tempest Yeah, that strikes me as a fair assessment. That said, as far as I know, it's one of the more active games with good code for combat and adventure RP. So for those who can get past the strange/cliquish theme integration, I'd recommend it. Just wasn't for me.
Oh, hey, I can contribute to this thread. I actually know a bit about Dream Chasers and Battle Fantasia but not any of the others, haha.
I believe Dream Chasers was founded by some people who used to play on (and I think, at one point, staff on) Match of the Millennium, where I imagine they honed their CSYS-coding/designing chops. Regardless, their combat system and innovative dungeon-crawling system are very cool. I apped an OC there when it opened and everyone was extremely nice. But I found the mishmash of themes to be very jarring; it seemed motivated by "what the staff like" and not "what goes together coherently." Which is fine, but I couldn't really get into the whole Lunar/Wild Arms/Xenogears??/some Tales games but not others shebang.
I haven't heard anything about Battle Fantasia in a while. I was invited to join once and due to bad experiences with the headwiz as a hyper-controlling player on other games, I declined. I later heard predictable rumors about fallout from staff being hyper-controlling. (But I didn't hear any specifics, so take that with a grain of salt.) Dunno how it is now.
PS: Thanks for showing interest in Match of the Millennium, @Alzie!
Oh, right, one other great feature on MotM that just sprung to mind: the minion system!
Any player can spawn a premade bit from a long list with predefined power levels and attacks/abilities and control them in combat. So you can make allies for yourself if you want to roleplay fighting someone of a higher power level, or you can effectively GM scenes for others by just controlling minions and not involving your actual characters. That can be really fun. People can roleplay as and run minions for you to fight against for lower-stakes combat scenes, or you can do that for others if you enjoy that sort of thing. Don't be shy about requesting that!
@lithium That's a fair point. Because of the complexity of the combat system, you do have to put some thought into the "fighting style" part of the app. If anyone's on the fence about the game because of that, I recommend apping a feature character, since all their abilities and moves have already been designed, and playing a bit to see if you want to put in the effort to app an original character.
And, yeah, the app is by e-mail. Some things haven't changed in the decade+ it's been around, haha.
@alzie Awesome! Thank you!
One more note for those interested: Because it is a fighting game MU, we do tend to, uh, resolve most problems by fighting, just out of habit (most people love the combat system a lot). But that's not how conflicts have to be resolved. One original character has been shaping the plot effectively just through social scenes. If that's what you want, it definitely can be done! (And I'd be happy to see more of it.)
@alzie Sure! About 2.5 years ago, the game rebooted the storyline and added more supernatural elements by integrating Darkstalkers and Mortal Kombat, which has monsters and demons and so forth. All of the evils from these games represent threats to the world that the heroes combat. For example, in the current King of Fighters 2017 plot, the "Gear" known as Justice (from Guilty Gear) has nuked Japan's Mt. Fuji at the behest of an infiltrated United Nations, thereby causing the ancient serpent god Orochi (from King of Fighters) to stir and revealing all the hidden ninja villages (like Kasumi and Ayane's from Dead or Alive). The thunder god Raiden (from Mortal Kombat) is enraged by these excesses of human technology and wants to send everyone back to the Stone Age. So basically every character on the game has a stake in how the plot turns out, and that's probably why it's gotten so lively.
Because of the integration of multiple fighting games, there isn't one dominant good or evil faction driving the plot or trying to win some sort of end-game. Instead, there are many factions and many more faction-independent characters, and what players typically do is focus on their own character's development while getting involved however they want in the overarching story.
I know some people really like heavily faction-driven games because there's a kind of conclusion everyone in the faction is striving for, but if you're not used to a more individualistic game, I encourage you to try it. I personally enjoy the freedom and flexibility of RP a lot more. Even if it can be harder to leave an enduring impact on the gameworld (because everyone's invested in different outcomes and so there's less of a collective consciousness about what's going on), the fun of developing close-knit relationships, forming your character's own network of allies and rivals, and having them come into play from plot to plot more than makes up for it.
Is that a satisfying answer to your question?