Posts made by Pandora

Surely we're done pretending it wasn't the main draw of MU* Soapbox?

I'm too old and cranky to to find a new place to argue with people, just bring it back.

@crawfish These are all so gorgeous I would struggle to pick just one. Bang-up job, seriously.

Sans bells or whistles:

Lesbians have a diversity representation problem in mu-ing; in no game of note does the lesbian community ever seem to resemble a diverse, healthy lesbian community.

@GreenFlashlight Butches are very much still a thing, I'm part of a few different butch/stud fashion/relationships groups.

@Rinel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

@Pandora said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

@Rinel I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but when you divide the line, in text-based gaming, between trans/not-trans lesbian representation, you are ignoring the fact that men who play lesbians are almost universally not playing trans characters, they are speaking for and over female-socialized lesbians.

I don't know why men playing lesbians should be expected to play trans lesbians instead of cis lesbians. The ways in which cis lesbians and trans lesbians differ is not something that means a man is more suited to play one over the other except in perhaps the most basic and vulgar concepts of anatomy, assuming you have a trans woman who has yet to begin any form of physical transition.

I in no way implied that men should play trans lesbians, and in fact I think that could actually make things worse. I said they don't. The fact that "No, everything is fine and not liking the way lesbians are represented in games is dogwhistle terfery" is the response here leads me to believe that lesbians don't get a voice in lesbian diversity representation unless they're trans, and that's disturbing.

@HelloProject I don't police anyone's thoughts. If words that describe reality, like 'male socialization' that don't really have linguistic alternatives that would A) mean the exact same thing & B) not be seen as equally problematic - are verboten, we can't really discuss diversity and representation of lesbians and that bothers me because...

@Rinel I'm not trying to pick a fight here, but when you divide the line, in text-based gaming, between trans/not-trans lesbian representation, you are ignoring the fact that men who play lesbians are almost universally not playing trans characters, they are speaking for and over female-socialized lesbians.

As one result, you see almost no butch/stud lesbians in MU*s (And I mean masc-presenting lesbians, not aggressive lipstick lesbians) because it's easier to just play a man and date women that aren't played like a temporary respite from watching porn.

It would be, in my opinion which you may disagree with, a disservice to trans people playing lesbians to say 'Let's lump you in with the lesbians played by men because that's easier/safer than talking about "mesbians" as their own problematic category'. I know problematic is a trite word these days, but work with me here.

@Rinel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

@Pandora said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

Non-binary, genderqueer, genderflexible, trans, agender people exist, and some have male socialization, and some play lesbians without a lot of regard for female socialization differences, and that's not been great for lesbian representation on games and it's hardly hating or fearing trans people to say so.

See it would have legitimately been better to just lead with this instead of dancing around the point, because then I could have just said "you mean it's not great for cis lesbian representation since trans lesbians exist."

Because, yeah, the experiences of trans lesbians are often really different from the experiences of cis ones.

I didn't dance around any points, I said what I said and you chose the most uncharitable interpretation possible and that's just a day ending in Y on the internet.

@GreenFlashlight That was tackling the pretty uncontentious part of what I'd said, I left 'male socialization' out because I wanted to talk about lesbian representation being diluted by men for years & that being something we've talked about forever, versus the newer mainstream coming to terms with people socialized as male who no longer identify (or never identified) as men.

Spellcheck is telling me 'uncontentious' is not a word and it's stressing me out.

@Tinuviel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

To many shitty people, sexuality and gender identity aren't who people are. They're choices being made.

I'm not saying that's how Pandora views it, just that it's hardly outside the realm of possibility.

I'm definitely a shitty person for plenty of reasons, but not this particular one, alas. I'm a lesbian despite the actual, meaningful inconvenience that can be sometimes; if I could choose to be bi or pan I would, so I know very well it's not a choice being made.

I explicitly said 'men' and 'people socialized as male', which clearly isn't saying 'anyone socialized as male is a man' or I'd have just said men. Non-binary, genderqueer, genderflexible, trans, agender people exist, and some have male socialization, and some play lesbians without a lot of regard for female socialization differences, and that's not been great for lesbian representation on games and it's hardly hating or fearing trans people to say so.

If that's not good enough, do carry on with the castigation if necessary, but I've always felt it best to be really honest here, even if I am being collectively shouted at about it, again.

@Rinel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

honestly I'm pretty pissed off that you're such a shitheel

My feelings are hurt by all this name-calling outside of the Hogpit.

@Rinel Well now that you've gotten them out, I hope there is peace in your head.

@Rinel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

See, this is the shifty attitude I'm talking about. I'm legitimately trying to give you the benefit of the doubt because I prefer to think people aren't raging bigot, but what you're writing over and over just sounds like transphobia without a spine.

I don't hate or fear anyone for having gender dysphoria.

@Roz said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

I think Rinel's point was more that some people raised with male socialization are actually lesbians themselves (because they are trans women).

As I said, I don't police what people call themselves. I take Cirno at face-value that Cirno is black; it doesn't mean I think every black character Cirno plays is going to be great for black representation just because they say so.

@Rinel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

My point is that "male socialized" people playing lesbians isn't necessarily a cause of poor lesbian representation, since lesbians with that alleged quality exist. It's like saying "a lot of redheads play lesbians; lesbian representation isn't great."

I'm not going to lie and start saying that men playing lesbians hasn't been terrible for lesbian representation because it's now not PC to say something that's been true forever and will continue to be true forever. If it doesn't apply to you/someone you know/someone you've heard of, that's great and I'm not debating it.

@Rinel I'm not the thought police; I don't care what people call themselves.

@HelloProject A lot of men play lesbians. A lot of people with male socialization play lesbians. The lesbian representation on mu*s is not great. That's not a slight toward anyone unless you aim it at anyone in particular, which would be rude and more importantly, fruitless.

@Groth said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

There's probably a word for doubling down on a misunderstanding until it becomes a slapfight but based on Wiktionary I don't think 'whitesplain' is the right one.

So you cherry-pick what they said, leave out the fact that they tagged POC not even remotely involved in what you claim was the misunderstanding (policing sexuality?), and come to the conclusion that there was no whiteplaining to see here.

'Kay.

@bored said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

@HelloProject It's not clear if your'e arguing only with @TheBigD or editorializing on the thread, but

Like, so far I keep hearing all of these anecdotes about how the SJW staff came at the poor innocent people playing a POC, but I haven't seen a single receipt, log of the character being played, MU name, or hell even a goddamned app to let people take a look at anything. It's just people saying shit in the midst of making what sounds a hell of a lot like a bad faith argument. In general I'm not questioning anyone who seems to be making their argument in good faith, but when people come making straw arguments and acting like there's packs of roving nonbinary bandits coming after them if they even remotely step out of line, I'm going to go "okay so where's the receipts".

Bolds mine. All of those look very plural, very general, very whole-thread wide-net, and a weasel clause at the end doesn't really change that. If that's not the intent, OK. But that's not how the post read to me.

Your personal stance/walking anything back/etc isn't the point, the issue is whether or not you think this shit is part of the discourse or not. You brought it into the discourse. So did @Pandora, who was part of that exchange. When people think it's maybe not worth the drama to play POC/outside their sexuality, stuff like this is why (And, since you brought up Cirno, it's really hard to tell 'legit' concern from the weaponized kind. He might be a rare example, but he had a whole lot of this forum fooled, using the same language you are).

Did you seriously tag me into a "You POC are the problem" post? Please don't. I prefer to make my own negativity, this kind of energy is not my speed.

@HelloProject said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

I think @Pandora brings up something that this thread is definitely capable of discussing.

The fact that the vast majority of lesbian characters in MUSHes are literally the same ultra horny sexpest character. Not that I have room to talk about sexpests, but I feel like I so rarely see lesbian characters who aren't obviously a dude RPing a fetish. If this was black characters they'd all be sitting around eating watermelon and nailing all the white women (I know it seems like I'm throwing stones from a glass house, but I definitely do things in MUSHes other than nail all the white women on most days).

Exactly this. I'm not going to lie, the idea of a bunch of white people sitting around chatting for 20+ pages about how to artificially inflate the diversity in games makes me nervous for what that artificial diversity will look like, and the continuing chatter about how the community is too insular to invite in minorities so it's better to pretend to be them instead is tragic as fuck.

Fix the culture if you want diversity, and if you can't be bothered, leave us out.

@Tinuviel Creative writing outlet? Text-based roleplaying is a goldmine of opportunity for anyone that loves fiction, but unfortunately in the earliest days it was plagued by the need to have certain things - regular, steady internet access, source books, a familiarity with thematic information, uninterrupted free time, etc. These things weren't as readily available to people from lesser means.

Now, if ever there was a time, it is NOW, to share something we love with people where there is no boundary, no cost-barrier, and less time-obligations than ever before. You might disagree as to the merit of MUing these days and I'd be hard-pressed to disagree, but if there are going to be 29 pages about diversity, let's at least consider PLAYER diversity.

Inviting Rachel Dolezal to your Ladies Who Lunch club doesn't make it more diverse. Pretending to be black doesn't add more blackness to a game.

@Tinuviel said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

@Pandora said in Diversity Representation in MU*ing:

let them know what they're missing out on in this hobby

Which is... what, exactly?

Fuck your excellent point.
This is a great hobby plagued by some massive problems.