@ortallus said in Encouraging Proactive Players:

tl;dr: If you want to 'encourage proactive players'... reward them!! Make it worth their while.

The fun of your game should be a reward in and of itself, but overall I agree with this statement.

Players want to feel like they have agency in the game they're playing and the plots happening around them. They're much more likely to engage and keep coming back if you keep things fresh, exciting, and interesting, and reward them for the effort they're putting in.

I come from an RPI, so rewards and involvement look a bit different than in a MUSH setting, but overall I think the best way to keep proactive players is to make sure their activity is noticed and appreciated.

@fortydeuce said in Armageddon MUD:

The website is all well and good, as is going to a Discord or message board or whatever, but if I can't OOC simple corrections, or ask for more complex clarifications, and get a straight and reliable answer each time without being left to my own devices for it, and if I run the risk of my character dying for unknowingly getting it wrong (as opposed to "knowingly," which is a whole different ball of wax), that's not an environment that would make me come running back to play.

Simple questions and clarifications are the intended uses of the OOC command on Armageddon. It's perfectly reasonable to use it for that and expect a helpful answer. As I mentioned a couple pages back, the limited OOC channels were a design decision. There is no player-to-player private OOC channel and no game global OOC channel. This means any use of OOC is room local, which has the potential to disrupt other players' immersion if it goes on too long. That is probably the main reason help discussions are encouraged to move forums, PMs, or more recently the discord chat. It isn't out of a desire to be unhelpful, but rather out of the belief that too much OOC distracts players from their roleplay and interrupts scenes.

I'll restate again, too, that the risks of dying because you the player made a mistake are being overblown in this discussion thread. I can't recall anyone being killed for mistakenly claiming they were literate or for not bowing to the wrong person (unless they went on to say their character had no need to bow, in which case they moved on from ignorance of the setting to just ignoring it.) My experience is not universal, but it is extensive.

As I mentioned before, I am an Armageddon staff member and I am happy to answer any questions, provide help or clarifications, or listen to your experiences (both positive and negative) with the game. You can contact me at rahnevyn@armageddon.org

I'm disappointed in the impression Armageddon has left with some former or prospective players in the past, because I don't feel like it accurately reflects what our MUD is. It is a game, not a cult or a club, and like most MU*s a labor of love, where dedicated staff and players collaborate to tell gripping, emotional, and exciting stories. That's been my experience, and I hope it would be everyone's.

Armageddon definitely does not have much OOC communication and collaboration. That's by design. But that isn't to say there's no IC forgiveness for OOC mistakes, either.

The instance of new players not knowing their character is illiterate is often raised as an example of Armageddon being unforgiving. In many years as a player and staff member I can never recall someone actually experiencing permanent consequences for a slip of the tongue with regard to literacy. Usually a combination of IC prompting ("What do you mean, read? You mean heard? No commoners can read of course, that's silly.") and light use of OOC ("Hey, see 'help literacy', your PC would know that reading is illegal) happens and the new player is corrected, and everyone forgives and forgets. In the moment, yes, there might be some IC consequences (someone questioning you), but an IC reply of ("Oh right, sorry, I misspoke") is almost always pretty much the end of it. For all intents and purposes the "retcon" happens, it's just not OOCly explicitly stated as such. I understand that it would feel frustrating to make a mistake your character would not make, but other players understand how that feels too and do not go out of their way to haze you over it. I can say definitively that if the staff felt like the opposite was happening, we would step in.

This usually goes down in the same way for other mistakes like not bowing to a templar, running around the city with your sword drawn, and so on.

In a MUSH or MUX or even other RP MUDs, these same sort of corrections probably happen more often via OOC channels. Armageddon and the RPI genre tends to downplay use of OOC. There are advantages to having more OOC and advantages to not having it; but anyway Armageddon doesn't. My point here is that that corrections of OOC mistakes still happen in Armageddon even if usage of OOC chats aren't as prevalent.

But definitely, there is no denying that OOC communication looks different on Armageddon vs. other MUSHes. There is no discussing a scene in advance or during or after via OOC with other parties involved. There is know "would my character know..." sorts of discussion that happens via a sidebar. Everything you know about the other characters around you is intended to be discovered purely in character via in character means.

These are design decisions that are probably going to feel different to MUSH players, and yes, they may make the game feel less welcoming, unfortunately. All I can say is the player and staff community is as OOCly welcoming to new players, and especially recently with the Discord channel I feel there are great opportunities to OOCly connect to the community and get help.

@ganymede said in Armageddon MUD:

@rahnevyn said in Armageddon MUD:

Yes, explicitly, that is the proposition of Armageddon. It's a roleplay-enforced world where there are permanent consequences and life is not fair. You may be mugged or murdered by someone you never expected to assault you, possibly you have not even met. No IC mistakes are required in order for bad things to happen to your character. Typically though, if you wind up mugged or murdered, your "mistake" was that you trusted the wrong person or wandered into an area that your character was probably not cut out to be in.

See, this is a good answer without equivocation. I like it.

MUSH player tend to eschew this sort of mentality, though. If I wanted to play this sort of game, I'd pick up Dark Souls, as I said before, or maybe go plug away at some PvP MMORPG or something.

Understandable! It isn't a game for everyone. But from an advertising perspective, the non- consensual and permanent aspects of the RP allow for storytelling opportunities not found many other places. It's a niche, but a compelling one for many people.

A PvP MMO like Eve is a good comparison in some ways. But throw in the flexibility and writing quality of a text based game and add immersive role-playing. That's what makes Arm unique.

TL;DR: You can teach people about how gritty and dark the game is in a way that leaves them excited, or despondent. Despondent people leave, and don't come back. Excited people stick around.

I agree 100%. And actually, the experiences described in this thread perhaps notwithstanding, I believe far more often than not experiences in Armageddon land in the "excited" category, not the "despondent" one. That's what everyone aims for. I've seen situations like the Shadowrun mugging you described happen almost exactly as you told it in Armageddon, just swapping out the terms. I've also seen it go not as well as that. I expect every game has a similar spectrum.

Armageddon has -clearly- left people with a despondent feeling. Despite anything anyone says about "It's not like that anymore..." damage has been done. And the more you contradict yourself defending Armageddon, the less people are going to believe it. Really, ya'll are shooting yourself in the foot by defending, instead of saying, "Sorry you had that experience. If anyone wants to give it a try, contact me, and I'll make sure that experience isn't repeated, by being your guide."

I'm disappointed that it has left some people feeling that way, because the game can be, and is, so much better. I want experiences to be riveting and pulse racing, not sour. I don't think any game will have a perfect score at attracting and involving new players, but we do our best. If anyone tried in the past and had a poor impression I would invite you to see if anything has changed. And whatever your impression is, I'd be happy to hear about it.

Coordinating roles ICly via OOC means is not allowed via our rules (edit: to clarify, meaning I can't have my avatar roll up and befriend you to show your character around, etc.), but I am happy to be a guide and ambassador in any capacity I can be. You can contact me at rahnevyn@armageddon.org.

@ortallus said in Armageddon MUD:

Does that 40 year old hunter need to know how not to make basic social faux pas that might get him killed?

Yes. Absolutely yes. And that includes going into the wrong neighborhood where he might get mugged.

Having discussed the social faux pas thing above, I'll just mention that the "wrong neighborhood" in an Armageddon context is typically the Labyrinth, which is clearly described with multiple warnings in OOC documentation as well as the IC room descriptions themselves as being Not a Nice Place. It is also pretty hard to wander in there by mistake.

When I mentioned being in the wrong neighborhood and getting mugged as a mistake earlier (like back on page... 10?..) I meant it as a mistake in terms of a "I have heard these warnings, but don't heed them" sense rather than a "Whoops, you took a wrong turn, now you die!" sense. Just to clarify.

@ortallus said in Encouraging Proactive Players:

tl;dr: If you want to 'encourage proactive players'... reward them!! Make it worth their while.

The fun of your game should be a reward in and of itself, but overall I agree with this statement.

Players want to feel like they have agency in the game they're playing and the plots happening around them. They're much more likely to engage and keep coming back if you keep things fresh, exciting, and interesting, and reward them for the effort they're putting in.

I come from an RPI, so rewards and involvement look a bit different than in a MUSH setting, but overall I think the best way to keep proactive players is to make sure their activity is noticed and appreciated.

@ortallus said in Armageddon MUD:

Does that 40 year old hunter need to know how not to make basic social faux pas that might get him killed?

Yes. Absolutely yes. And that includes going into the wrong neighborhood where he might get mugged.

Having discussed the social faux pas thing above, I'll just mention that the "wrong neighborhood" in an Armageddon context is typically the Labyrinth, which is clearly described with multiple warnings in OOC documentation as well as the IC room descriptions themselves as being Not a Nice Place. It is also pretty hard to wander in there by mistake.

When I mentioned being in the wrong neighborhood and getting mugged as a mistake earlier (like back on page... 10?..) I meant it as a mistake in terms of a "I have heard these warnings, but don't heed them" sense rather than a "Whoops, you took a wrong turn, now you die!" sense. Just to clarify.

@fortydeuce said in Armageddon MUD:

The website is all well and good, as is going to a Discord or message board or whatever, but if I can't OOC simple corrections, or ask for more complex clarifications, and get a straight and reliable answer each time without being left to my own devices for it, and if I run the risk of my character dying for unknowingly getting it wrong (as opposed to "knowingly," which is a whole different ball of wax), that's not an environment that would make me come running back to play.

Simple questions and clarifications are the intended uses of the OOC command on Armageddon. It's perfectly reasonable to use it for that and expect a helpful answer. As I mentioned a couple pages back, the limited OOC channels were a design decision. There is no player-to-player private OOC channel and no game global OOC channel. This means any use of OOC is room local, which has the potential to disrupt other players' immersion if it goes on too long. That is probably the main reason help discussions are encouraged to move forums, PMs, or more recently the discord chat. It isn't out of a desire to be unhelpful, but rather out of the belief that too much OOC distracts players from their roleplay and interrupts scenes.

I'll restate again, too, that the risks of dying because you the player made a mistake are being overblown in this discussion thread. I can't recall anyone being killed for mistakenly claiming they were literate or for not bowing to the wrong person (unless they went on to say their character had no need to bow, in which case they moved on from ignorance of the setting to just ignoring it.) My experience is not universal, but it is extensive.

As I mentioned before, I am an Armageddon staff member and I am happy to answer any questions, provide help or clarifications, or listen to your experiences (both positive and negative) with the game. You can contact me at rahnevyn@armageddon.org

I'm disappointed in the impression Armageddon has left with some former or prospective players in the past, because I don't feel like it accurately reflects what our MUD is. It is a game, not a cult or a club, and like most MU*s a labor of love, where dedicated staff and players collaborate to tell gripping, emotional, and exciting stories. That's been my experience, and I hope it would be everyone's.

TL;DR: You can teach people about how gritty and dark the game is in a way that leaves them excited, or despondent. Despondent people leave, and don't come back. Excited people stick around.

I agree 100%. And actually, the experiences described in this thread perhaps notwithstanding, I believe far more often than not experiences in Armageddon land in the "excited" category, not the "despondent" one. That's what everyone aims for. I've seen situations like the Shadowrun mugging you described happen almost exactly as you told it in Armageddon, just swapping out the terms. I've also seen it go not as well as that. I expect every game has a similar spectrum.

Armageddon has -clearly- left people with a despondent feeling. Despite anything anyone says about "It's not like that anymore..." damage has been done. And the more you contradict yourself defending Armageddon, the less people are going to believe it. Really, ya'll are shooting yourself in the foot by defending, instead of saying, "Sorry you had that experience. If anyone wants to give it a try, contact me, and I'll make sure that experience isn't repeated, by being your guide."

I'm disappointed that it has left some people feeling that way, because the game can be, and is, so much better. I want experiences to be riveting and pulse racing, not sour. I don't think any game will have a perfect score at attracting and involving new players, but we do our best. If anyone tried in the past and had a poor impression I would invite you to see if anything has changed. And whatever your impression is, I'd be happy to hear about it.

Coordinating roles ICly via OOC means is not allowed via our rules (edit: to clarify, meaning I can't have my avatar roll up and befriend you to show your character around, etc.), but I am happy to be a guide and ambassador in any capacity I can be. You can contact me at rahnevyn@armageddon.org.

@ganymede said in Armageddon MUD:

@rahnevyn said in Armageddon MUD:

Yes, explicitly, that is the proposition of Armageddon. It's a roleplay-enforced world where there are permanent consequences and life is not fair. You may be mugged or murdered by someone you never expected to assault you, possibly you have not even met. No IC mistakes are required in order for bad things to happen to your character. Typically though, if you wind up mugged or murdered, your "mistake" was that you trusted the wrong person or wandered into an area that your character was probably not cut out to be in.

See, this is a good answer without equivocation. I like it.

MUSH player tend to eschew this sort of mentality, though. If I wanted to play this sort of game, I'd pick up Dark Souls, as I said before, or maybe go plug away at some PvP MMORPG or something.

Understandable! It isn't a game for everyone. But from an advertising perspective, the non- consensual and permanent aspects of the RP allow for storytelling opportunities not found many other places. It's a niche, but a compelling one for many people.

A PvP MMO like Eve is a good comparison in some ways. But throw in the flexibility and writing quality of a text based game and add immersive role-playing. That's what makes Arm unique.

@tnp said in Armageddon MUD:

@rahnevyn So in other words, you can 'win'. Which actually explains a good deal about the game.

I wouldn't say that at all. Nobody 'wins' Armageddon, really. You can achieve things if you want, sometimes you can change the direction of a plot or even have something you were involved in wind up on the chronology page. I'm sure every game has its famous achievers like that. But win? Nah. In my opinion the best way to win Armageddon is to die in a cool way.

@ganymede said in Armageddon MUD:

Now, if I'm taking what you're saying at face value, that leads me to the conclusion that being mugged, murdered, abused, or treated poorly may occur, but not as a consequence of making an IC mistake.

Am I understanding this correctly?

Because, if so, I still don't know why most people would be interested in a gaming experience where they may, for not fault of their own, get killed or robbed when they hit the Grid.

Yes, explicitly, that is the proposition of Armageddon. It's a roleplay-enforced world where there are permanent consequences and life is not fair. You may be mugged or murdered by someone you never expected to assault you, possibly you have not even met. No IC mistakes are required in order for bad things to happen to your character. Typically though, if you wind up mugged or murdered, your "mistake" was that you trusted the wrong person or wandered into an area that your character was probably not cut out to be in.

This doesn't mean that Armageddon is full of rampant indiscriminate murder-jerks who will look for every opportunity to hurt you. Roleplay and IC reasons are required and expected at all times, especially in any sort of PvP activity.

Why would players be interested? Because to some people (granted, not all!) this element of danger is compelling. It can be gripping and sexy. Permanent consequences make the game feel immersive; you can actually destroy your enemies and know they aren't coming back. Secrets can stay secret, because knowledge dies with whoever knew them. It also makes your own achievements more rewarding; the feeling of accomplishment in knowing you survived to do something few other PCs ever managed is a great one. In short, victories feel well-earned and sweeter, and losses feel more tragic. Tragedy can sting, but it also can make for great stories.

Armageddon definitely does not have much OOC communication and collaboration. That's by design. But that isn't to say there's no IC forgiveness for OOC mistakes, either.

The instance of new players not knowing their character is illiterate is often raised as an example of Armageddon being unforgiving. In many years as a player and staff member I can never recall someone actually experiencing permanent consequences for a slip of the tongue with regard to literacy. Usually a combination of IC prompting ("What do you mean, read? You mean heard? No commoners can read of course, that's silly.") and light use of OOC ("Hey, see 'help literacy', your PC would know that reading is illegal) happens and the new player is corrected, and everyone forgives and forgets. In the moment, yes, there might be some IC consequences (someone questioning you), but an IC reply of ("Oh right, sorry, I misspoke") is almost always pretty much the end of it. For all intents and purposes the "retcon" happens, it's just not OOCly explicitly stated as such. I understand that it would feel frustrating to make a mistake your character would not make, but other players understand how that feels too and do not go out of their way to haze you over it. I can say definitively that if the staff felt like the opposite was happening, we would step in.

This usually goes down in the same way for other mistakes like not bowing to a templar, running around the city with your sword drawn, and so on.

In a MUSH or MUX or even other RP MUDs, these same sort of corrections probably happen more often via OOC channels. Armageddon and the RPI genre tends to downplay use of OOC. There are advantages to having more OOC and advantages to not having it; but anyway Armageddon doesn't. My point here is that that corrections of OOC mistakes still happen in Armageddon even if usage of OOC chats aren't as prevalent.

But definitely, there is no denying that OOC communication looks different on Armageddon vs. other MUSHes. There is no discussing a scene in advance or during or after via OOC with other parties involved. There is know "would my character know..." sorts of discussion that happens via a sidebar. Everything you know about the other characters around you is intended to be discovered purely in character via in character means.

These are design decisions that are probably going to feel different to MUSH players, and yes, they may make the game feel less welcoming, unfortunately. All I can say is the player and staff community is as OOCly welcoming to new players, and especially recently with the Discord channel I feel there are great opportunities to OOCly connect to the community and get help.