i'm going to make a statement i have made on our discord before, but take the threat with a grain of salt.
if i am assisting a new player in ooc, and someone has a problem with that, that's too bad for them. i can pkill them so they'll be quiet and i can return to helping.
on a serious note, if someone takes issue with it, i am not a nice person. i will tell them to shut up, i'm helping a new player, they can kindly go somewhere else because this new person is more important than they are to me. i'm very protective oocly of newbies and when they have questions or issues, that takes precedence. an old player might get salty, but he won't ragequit because i told him off. a new player might ragequit because he feels he's being treated unfairly in a generally unfair world, and i have to explain how things work, and that we don't hate them, our character might hate their character, but we're all in it for the story. we aren't here to make you as a player feel unwelcome.
we want new players butchering people and going on well-roleplayed murder sprees too.
@d-bone said in Armageddon MUD:
Well there tend to be a few examples- but all of which could color a player to refrain from using ooc.
The first example is a new player asking questions oocly about things his character would icly know to other characters in game. Said players asked questions would likely respond not with an ooc answer, but a simple ask IC.
General communication about things you can do in the game oocly are highly discouraged, if not punishable infractions.
A benign question asked oocly- even if your character icly might have knowledge of such- that is illegal could be something as simple as:Hey is it a good idea to go outside the west gate and hunt there or is the east gate safer? Some games go find out ic, Arma has a much harder stance on that shit, not only do you not get the answer, you should be 'reminded' not to ask questions like that.
Thus after maybe a week of this behavior- of being 'encouraged' or 'punished' to use ic communicion only, a player is not going to WANT to ask for a retcon until the scene is far too far in.
(On the RPI I play on currently, during a travel phase to arrange play times for about 10 or so players.. I used ooc personally.. 4 times total? During a trip, over the course of a week. This was to arrange travel times.. with diverse players. Instead players tried to try and match u preal time to in game time which is all sorts of stupid and difficult. Imagine how much easier if everyone was just willing to use ooc and not afraid people would call them out on that shit)
in our game people will say "we're having x happen in x weeks (our in game version of rl days), and will clarify with an ooc as to when exactly this thing will happen.
also, if you asked me oocly whether the east or west gate of allanak was safer, i would reply in ooc: the entire desert outside the city is basically unsafe, so there is no real way to say which is safer oocly.
the nuances of that could be explained icly by those that know, and i would probably add "you can definitely find that out icly by asking".
@rahnevyn said in Armageddon MUD:
Yes, explicitly, that is the proposition of Armageddon. It's a roleplay-enforced world where there are permanent consequences and life is not fair. You may be mugged or murdered by someone you never expected to assault you, possibly you have not even met. No IC mistakes are required in order for bad things to happen to your character. Typically though, if you wind up mugged or murdered, your "mistake" was that you trusted the wrong person or wandered into an area that your character was probably not cut out to be in.
See, this is a good answer without equivocation. I like it.
MUSH player tend to eschew this sort of mentality, though. If I wanted to play this sort of game, I'd pick up Dark Souls, as I said before, or maybe go plug away at some PvP MMORPG or something.
@ganymede said in Armageddon MUD:
@rahnevyn said in Armageddon MUD:
Yes, explicitly, that is the proposition of Armageddon. It's a roleplay-enforced world where there are permanent consequences and life is not fair. You may be mugged or murdered by someone you never expected to assault you, possibly you have not even met. No IC mistakes are required in order for bad things to happen to your character. Typically though, if you wind up mugged or murdered, your "mistake" was that you trusted the wrong person or wandered into an area that your character was probably not cut out to be in.
See, this is a good answer without equivocation. I like it.
MUSH player tend to eschew this sort of mentality, though. If I wanted to play this sort of game, I'd pick up Dark Souls, as I said before, or maybe go plug away at some PvP MMORPG or something.
Understandable! It isn't a game for everyone. But from an advertising perspective, the non- consensual and permanent aspects of the RP allow for storytelling opportunities not found many other places. It's a niche, but a compelling one for many people.
A PvP MMO like Eve is a good comparison in some ways. But throw in the flexibility and writing quality of a text based game and add immersive role-playing. That's what makes Arm unique.
@ganymede said in Armageddon MUD:
@rahnevyn said in Armageddon MUD:No IC mistakes are required in order for bad things to happen to your character. Typically though, if you wind up mugged or murdered, your "mistake" was that you trusted the wrong person or wandered into an area that your character was probably not cut out to be in.
But see, that's exactly the sort of thing that a character that lived in a city for any length of time would know, ICly, that his player, OOCly, did not know. But.. read below...
@ganymede said in Armageddon MUD:
MUSH player tend to eschew this sort of mentality, though. If I wanted to play this sort of game, I'd pick up Dark Souls, as I said before, or maybe go plug away at some PvP MMORPG or something.
It's funny, because my first MUSH/MUX experience was Shadowrun: Seattle. Within a couple of hours, I wandered into the Redmond Barrens, exploring as I would have a MUD.
Wanting to meet new people, though, I stopped when I saw a couple of people on a street corner. I'd read a bit about posing, and decided to give it a try. Striding right down the middle of the street, bold as can be. In Rusted Stilettos territory. After my pose, I OOC'd something to the effect of, "Hi guys! I'm brand new to MUSHing! Want to play?"
Suffice to say, my character got rolled. The gangers beat him up, took his paper nuyen, and left him in the gutter.
But the -players- had mercy. They posed looking at my gear and saying, "Man, this guy's got drek for gear. Not sure if we'd be doing him more of a favor getting rid of it, or teach him a lesson by letting him keep it."
In the end, they let me keep it.
All the while, during the scene, we were really having fun. I was learning the game, the setting, and the system. The people were OOCly being -extremely- helpful, all the while explaining that I was in gang turf, and where I should avoid going alone, etc.
At the end of the scene, both of the other characters gave me a +nom. This was on a time when you got 2 +noms per week, and each was worth 1 full karma, so they were pretty precious.
TL;DR: You can teach people about how gritty and dark the game is in a way that leaves them excited, or despondent. Despondent people leave, and don't come back. Excited people stick around.
Armageddon has -clearly- left people with a despondent feeling. Despite anything anyone says about "It's not like that anymore..." damage has been done. And the more you contradict yourself defending Armageddon, the less people are going to believe it. Really, ya'll are shooting yourself in the foot by defending, instead of saying, "Sorry you had that experience. If anyone wants to give it a try, contact me, and I'll make sure that experience isn't repeated, by being your guide."
except offering to be their in game guide would break one of the core principles of separating ic and ooc and not organizing friendships and such in an out of character manner.
as i have said dozens of times, you can come into discord, @evilcabbage me and you will get help very quickly. if not from me, from any number of people in the discord who are there to help new players.
@evilcabbage said in Armageddon MUD:
except offering to be their in game guide would break one of the core principles of separating ic and ooc and not organizing friendships and such in an out of character manner.
as i have said dozens of times, you can come into discord, @evilcabbage me and you will get help very quickly. if not from me, from any number of people in the discord who are there to help new players.
Oh, I'm not saying you've done those things. I think you've admitted to the things. I was just making a general statement, mostly, though some was directed at Thug.
And if people can't separate IC from OOC as far as punishing someone for being in the wrong place, then they need to separate IC from OOC as far as teaching people and making friends. Otherwise, again, you're just going to lose people.
You guys have like a 3.8 rating on mudsites, I think? That's.. pretty not good.
TL;DR: You can teach people about how gritty and dark the game is in a way that leaves them excited, or despondent. Despondent people leave, and don't come back. Excited people stick around.
I agree 100%. And actually, the experiences described in this thread perhaps notwithstanding, I believe far more often than not experiences in Armageddon land in the "excited" category, not the "despondent" one. That's what everyone aims for. I've seen situations like the Shadowrun mugging you described happen almost exactly as you told it in Armageddon, just swapping out the terms. I've also seen it go not as well as that. I expect every game has a similar spectrum.
Armageddon has -clearly- left people with a despondent feeling. Despite anything anyone says about "It's not like that anymore..." damage has been done. And the more you contradict yourself defending Armageddon, the less people are going to believe it. Really, ya'll are shooting yourself in the foot by defending, instead of saying, "Sorry you had that experience. If anyone wants to give it a try, contact me, and I'll make sure that experience isn't repeated, by being your guide."
I'm disappointed that it has left some people feeling that way, because the game can be, and is, so much better. I want experiences to be riveting and pulse racing, not sour. I don't think any game will have a perfect score at attracting and involving new players, but we do our best. If anyone tried in the past and had a poor impression I would invite you to see if anything has changed. And whatever your impression is, I'd be happy to hear about it.
Coordinating roles ICly via OOC means is not allowed via our rules (edit: to clarify, meaning I can't have my avatar roll up and befriend you to show your character around, etc.), but I am happy to be a guide and ambassador in any capacity I can be. You can contact me at rahnevyn@armageddon.org.
@ortallus said in Armageddon MUD:
Suffice to say, my character got rolled. The gangers beat him up, took his paper nuyen, and left him in the gutter.
But the -players- had mercy. They posed looking at my gear and saying, "Man, this guy's got drek for gear. Not sure if we'd be doing him more of a favor getting rid of it, or teach him a lesson by letting him keep it."
In the end, they let me keep it.
Scenes like that are actually awesome and happen pretty often in game. I guess, judging by some mentions here, not often enough. But if one was to describe the game, a scene like what Ortallus describes fits it more, then what ... Hedge (I might be mistaken whom exactly. This thread tripled in size) then what some others described. Shit happens. In the end, the game is filled with players and the players are different. But I hope to strongly assure you that a scene like what Ortallus described is definitely predominant in Armageddon, then some whatever other weirdness.
I'm sort of curious to hear people's views on a certain log. That wasnt on Armageddon. That was on Labmud, but in the end, the log 'is' about a new player ... suffering. I dont know if good folks here would have the patience to read the log, but I'd be very curious to read their views. Who was more right, who was more wrong.
@d-bone said in Armageddon MUD:
Let's not also forget that ooc communication is highly discouraged- so some new players might encounter situations where they are told not to take it ooc and keep it ic, so they might be afraid to ask for a retcon. Oh snap, the system is designed to keep new players in the dark and kick the shit out of em. So you know all those games your encouraged to express your needs and desires in the game oocly with the people around you so they know your limits n shit? Fuck that.
That’s what you said and that’s why I said “I confused”, then later you said, it’s like Forgotten Kingdom.
First of all why would you ask “where’s the best place to hunt?” Out of character, in the middle of roleplay, when you can ask that in character, when you can ask on the discord or the new player questions forum? What will most likely happen is a player will show you where which gate to go out to find someplace to hunt if they have time.
Ok, so if you’re the type of player you don’t want to use the tools available to you and you’re going to break character all the time to ask all the questions out of character, then you’re right, you will have a hard time.
In your second example with shadowrun, what you described happened to your character is more in line with what could happen to your character on Armageddon.
So no, it’s not a system designed to keep a new player in the dark and kick the shit out of them. And you still haven’t given me an example where you are told to keep it ic.
@ortallus said in Armageddon MUD:
And if people can't separate IC from OOC as far as punishing someone for being in the wrong place, then they need to separate IC from OOC as far as teaching people
This seems pretty key. If you're ok with punishing a character IC for a failing of OOC knowledge, you need to also be ok with helping a player OOC in the actual game. I mean, if they don't realize something as simple as 'commoners can't read', are they actually going to know about your discord?
I'm a pretty big proponent of not talking to people OOC in rp games. I think the more of it done, the more it hurts the immersion. I think people decide "oh me and X are friends because we've had a few pleasant chats when everything was going great between our characters" and then when they realize that isn't a friendship that's going to stand the test of any sort of conflict, they get extra upset as if they've been betrayed. I think it leads to drama.
However, you can't really say 'oh all ooc communication is discouraged, and it's for the FUN, and that's why no one will give you a heads up you're about to get facerolled for doing something your character would absolutely know not to do' and ALSO say 'but just pop into our ooc discord and you can get the help you need!'
I mean you can, obviously. It just kind of seems to defeat the stated purpose. And since it defeats the stated purpose, one wonders why people don't just say it quickly in the game. Feels kind of like a half measure, like trying to hold on to an older style of full immersion dickery while sort of kind of almost making an effort to actually retain new players.
i don't particularly know what that rating is. i don't pay attention to the voting sites. i only came here because one of us was advertising and a couple people were not being very friendly.
@thugheaven said in Armageddon MUD:
First of all why would you ask “where’s the best place to hunt?” Out of character, in the middle of roleplay, when you can ask that in character, when you can ask on the discord or the new player questions forum?
Why? Because that is the norm on literally every other online roleplaying format I've ever encountered. MMOs, MUSHes, Roll20, Storium.... all of them. When you have an out-of-character question that your character would know that you (the player) do not, you ask in the game via the game's out-of-character band (+ooc, PMs, chat, whatever).
Armageddon wants to do that differently and take all OOC questions off the game to discord/forums? That's their prerogative. It seems unnecessarily cumbersome to pause RP and fire up discord just to ask a question when you can just ask the question right there to the player you're playing with but whatever.
Asking in-character though, as bolded in your response, is just weird. Did your local hunter get hit on the head and suddenly forget where the hunting grounds were?
@ortallus said in Armageddon MUD:
You can teach people about how gritty and dark the game is in a way that leaves them excited, or despondent. Despondent people leave, and don't come back. Excited people stick around.
This is the best take-away here.
I have no grief with games that are thick on IC consequences or that eschew OOC communications on the game. And being up front about that is just fine with me as well.
But this was not the message initially conveyed, in my opinion.
Anyhow, good luck to anyone who plays on this game in the future.
so if you're brand new and you roll up a 40 year old, grizzled hunting veteran, should i explain to you as a new player oocly where to find everything because as a 40 year old grizzled hunter you would know all of that, without you as a person having to earn that knowledge yourself?
@evilcabbage said in Armageddon MUD:
so if you're brand new and you roll up a 40 year old, grizzled hunting veteran, should i explain to you as a new player oocly where to find everything because as a 40 year old grizzled hunter you would know all of that, without you as a person having to earn that knowledge yourself?
Yes, because I am not my 40 year-old hunting veteran character.
i mean you can find some of that stuff in helpfiles, but i'm not going to personally give you the digs on every single location to hunt every great beast in the entire world just because you rolled in as a 40 year old character.
@evilcabbage said in Armageddon MUD:
so if you're brand new and you roll up a 40 year old, grizzled hunting veteran, should i explain to you as a new player oocly where to find everything
No, just like if you're brand new on any modern game and you roll up a 22 year old computer hacker, staff doesn't need to explain to them OOC how nmap works.
Roleplaying is an abstraction. You don't have (or you very rarely do) the information, experience or expertise your characters do. Do you suppose all those doctors on TV have graduated from medical school?
@evilcabbage said in Armageddon MUD:
i mean you can find some of that stuff in helpfiles, but i'm not going to personally give you the digs on every single location to hunt every great beast in the entire world just because you rolled in as a 40 year old character.
Why not?
Here's where your game is not as immersive as you'd like it to believe. The character should have that knowledge (unless you dispute that), but the player does not. Your position breaks immersion because it makes no sense to have a 40 year-old hunting veteran not know where good hunting grounds are.
(This presumes you can roll in as a 40 year-old hunting veteran in the first place.)
As Arkandel says, roleplaying is an abstraction. Your position is simulationist.
@arkandel said in Armageddon MUD:
Roleplaying is an abstraction. You don't have (or you very rarely do) the information, experience or expertise your characters do. Do you suppose all those doctors on TV have graduated from medical school?
Yeah, both you and @Ganymede are spot-on. That's the whole point of roleplaying (and acting, for that matter) - going beyond your personal knowledge to take on the role of a completely different person.
Otherwise it's not RP, it's just a video game. Which is fine!! Hey, I love video games. But you're not going to convince me that Tomb Raider has anything to do with roleplaying when my "super-awesome adventurer/explorer" Lara Croft is constantly walking into walls and flailing around uselessly just because I the player suck at the game.
