Celebrities that are Dead To Us
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@ganymede I do not think Franken is in the same pool as Cosby or Trump, and I haven't seen anyone else say that in this thread. It is also true that accepting responsibility and whatever consequences come is a mark of character that I feel puts Franken well above Cosby or Trump.
That said...
He did it. He felt that this was alright to do, he did it, and his accepting responsibility did not come about until it broke as national news. He's still heavily tarnished, and I will not fault anyone for being more affected by the allegations made against Franken (as compared to, say, Trump) because he held more esteem in their eyes and therefore this comes as more of a shock. It affected me more, personally, because I had more respect for him and some of that respect was absolutely misplaced.
They don't have to be the same levels of wrongdoing for people to feel like gagging and backing away quickly from any of those who've had these stories come out.
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@arkandel said in Celebrities that are Dead To Us:
Absolutely. But what (I think) we're discussing here is whether a celebrity's image in our eyes is irrevocably scarred by something they did.
Scarred to the point where the person is considered dead, right?
Look, everyone can have their opinion on this. That's fine. I think it's foolish to truly admire anyone outside of your immediate, touchable group of friends and loved ones, even though it may be noble to aspire to be like someone else.
And I may be a cynic when I say that no one -- no one -- is beyond reproach. Everyone has sinned; everyone is vulnerable; but not everyone matters and not everyone is caught.
Al Franken took a negative and spun it into an unbelievable positive, politically. An inquest into him means an inquest into any politician -- Roy Moore, Donald Trump -- who has been accused of or caught in sexual misconduct. A failure to do so would be hypocritical.
But, sure. Perhaps he was wrongfully put on a pedestal, and maybe led us to believe that he should've been.
No one is beyond reproach. The higher they soar, the farther they fall.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@ganymede said in Celebrities that are Dead To Us:
Scarred to the point where the person is considered dead, right?
I didn't pick the thread title.
But well, to the point where I no longer enjoy their work the same way, or see it differently, perhaps. I mean that's the association; it's not like I knew Kevin Spacey personally before any of this. If I no longer like what they do there's no relationship at all since... what else is there?Look, everyone can have their opinion on this. That's fine. I think it's foolish to truly admire anyone outside of your immediate, touchable group of friends and loved ones, even though it may be noble to aspire to be like someone else.
I dunno about that. For example I read a lot of what Isaac Asimov wrote when I was a teenager, and it shaped me to a significant degree. He wrote about the inefficiency of violence as a solution to problems, using logic to achieve your goals, aspiring to build our knowledge of the universe around us as a way to live our lives. I admire him for that.
And I may be a cynic when I say that no one -- no one -- is beyond reproach. Everyone has sinned; everyone is vulnerable; but not everyone matters and not everyone is caught.
You're the one who brought up scale! I have no illusions that say, Asimov was perfect, but it's one thing to think he might have cheated on his taxes (or whatever) than that he kept a collection of human faces in his basement.
No one is beyond reproach. The higher they soar, the farther they fall.
Unless you are Fred Rogers. That guy was the goddamn epitome of human morality.
- He who takes offense when not intended is a fool. He who takes offense when intended is a greater fool.
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@arkandel said in Celebrities that are Dead To Us:
You're the one who brought up scale! I have no illusions that say, Asimov was perfect, but it's one thing to think he might have cheated on his taxes (or whatever) than that he kept a collection of human faces in his basement.
Yes. I did bring up scale. This is because all flesh is weak, but different kinds of flesh have different uses and flavors.
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....Gary Oldman.
Gary Oldman was my favorite actor for a long, long time. The man is an underrated genius, who has never in his career voiced two characters the same way. To the point that between that and makeup? On more than one occasion, I've looked at his IMDB page and gone "Holy shit, that's him?!!?"
He is also apparently a crazy old racist. And not just any kind of crazy old racist. No, no. He's the kind of crazy old racist who assumes all white people are secretly just as racist as he is.
So then it was Fassbender. Who beats women. And Spacey. Who is a sexual predator -- a fact I'd heard about awhile ago because I have friends of friends who worked at the Old Vic under his tenure. He's had a quiet reputation, at least in the theater end of the industry, for years.
I swear to God, if anyone takes Patrick Stewart away from me, Aria gonna cut a bitch.
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So, here's the issue that I have with threads like this: Similar to what @Ganymede said, this is all just Court of Public Opinion. Anyone can make claims that someone did something wrong to them, and the more famous you are, the more likely you are to be targeted for exactly that sort of thing. I know that socially, the conversation has shifted to the point where we just sort of automatically take these sorts of claims at face value, but I still think that's a little fucked up.
I'm sure that it's not the popular opinion, but frankly, I do want to see some kind of proof of these allegations before I make a judgment against anyone.There are way too many people who are willing to say incredibly fucked up things for their 15 minutes in the spotlight, and lately our culture has only been rewarding those sorts.
If a celebrity has done something wrong, and there is some proof of that? Fine. If it's just 'someone says that this thing happened to them at the hands of Celebrity Y', I'm gonna take it with a grain of salt.
Racism isn't Tinkerbell. It doesn't need you to believe in it for it to exist.
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@derp boo to you
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Abe Vigoda. He is dead to me.
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@derp When multiple people with no previous affiliation all corroborate a pattern of behavior, I find it credulous. It's one thing to take an accusation with a grain of salt. It's entirely another to assume that a score of people with no provable prior connection must be involved in a grand conspiracy to get back at Bill Cosby for his jello commercials. I think that is an extremely foolish stance to take.
And let us be blunt. Predatory individuals have relied upon the willingness of others to dismiss something not easily provable for decades. It is very prevalent to many people's daily experiences. This is a backlash against that, and it is a good thing.
some fucking idiot who people only like because he's good at taking credit for the work of everyone under him, just like every other fucking L&L headwiz.
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@derp Because Proof really helped put Cosby away, or stopped Trump from getting elected.
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@Apos
What, it's a good thing that people can have their reputations ruined by a handful of accusers with no evidence of their claims? No. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.Racism isn't Tinkerbell. It doesn't need you to believe in it for it to exist.
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@derp said in Celebrities that are Dead To Us:
@Apos
What, it's a good thing that people can have their reputations ruined by a handful of accusers with no evidence of their claims? No. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.Sure, I'm fine with agreeing to disagree. Yes, I think it is an extremely good thing they can. And I mean no disrespect by this, but I think that people relating to the accused in these cases and thinking, 'dishonest accusations could bring me down' comes from a position of immense privilege that is ethically bankrupt.
some fucking idiot who people only like because he's good at taking credit for the work of everyone under him, just like every other fucking L&L headwiz.
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@apos said in Celebrities that are Dead To Us:
'dishonest accusations could bring me down' comes from a position of immense privilege that is ethically bankrupt.
Or, like, any of us who have worked in criminal defense in states where this sort of thing happens fairly routinely.
Racism isn't Tinkerbell. It doesn't need you to believe in it for it to exist.
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YIKES
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@derp I've worked in criminal defense for years. My willingness to defend accused sexual abusers from criminal liability is distinguishable from my ability to accept victim testimonials on a more probable than not basis. I've talked about this before, but context exists, man, it's real.
Like ... working in criminal justice doesn't mean you automatically disbelieve all accusations of wrongdoing. Do you really believe all of your clients who say "bitches be lyin" about sex crimes?
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Perhaps my heartbreak would not be so had I not been involved in fighting for recognition and action against politicians and leaders in my party who have sexually harassed and assaulted people both in the context of their jobs but up to and including a popular activist and organizer for the Bernie campaign, who was a personal friend, raping a young woman 3 days after she turned 18 during a state party gathering. (He was expelled from the party, over the objections of other old primarily white dudes who said he was too good of an organizer to let go just because some girl “made a mistake.” Now we are in the process of rooting out those folks too. No place for rape apologists. Period.
I don’t mind if other people think it’s excessive to be repulsed by Franken’s conduct even if he did not, so far as we know, rape or harass teen girls at the mall. If I wanted to be part of a group that’s fine with rape culture behavior as long as there’s a warm body to vote in line with donor wishes, i would go join the Republicans.
I probably know more about operations and issues in my corner of local and statewide Dems than anyone looking down their nose at me because they perceive it to be too excessive for their tastes.
Fuck that shit. This is a pervasive problem, we’ve been working tirelessly to change it from the ground up, and it’s fine if I feel pretty disgusted by Franken’s stupid, sexist behavior in his past but including when he was a sitting senator for my party. I expect better from the people I work hard for, and yeah, sorry not sorry I’m not willing to hold them to the same floor licking standards as others do for their racist rapey ass creepster bigots who get defended by “well golly gee if he’d had more time Jesus prolly would have done it too, he’s just being a man!” idiots.
People can fuck right off with that shit.
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@derp said in Celebrities that are Dead To Us:
@apos said in Celebrities that are Dead To Us:
'dishonest accusations could bring me down' comes from a position of immense privilege that is ethically bankrupt.
Or, like, any of us who have worked in criminal defense in states where this sort of thing happens fairly routinely.
That might be a slightly smaller number than say, half the population of the united states. Who have experiences that also happen fairly routinely.
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@saosmash said in Celebrities that are Dead To Us:
@derp I've worked in criminal defense for years. My willingness to defend accused sexual abusers from criminal liability is distinguishable from my ability to accept victim testimonials on a more probable than not basis. I've talked about this before, but context exists, man, it's real.
Like ... working in criminal justice doesn't mean you automatically disbelieve all accusations of wrongdoing. Do you really believe all of your clients who say "bitches be lyin" about sex crimes?
I wasn't just talking about sex crimes, I was talking about accusations of wrongdoing in general. I mean, again, I don't expect everyone to agree with my opinion on the matter, but trials by the court of public opinion make me really uncomfortable in a society where accusers are treated as heroes by default. People lie. Or they're just flat-out wrong. It's a thing. All the time? No. But routinely enough to make me cautious.
Racism isn't Tinkerbell. It doesn't need you to believe in it for it to exist.
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@apos said in Celebrities that are Dead To Us:
Predatory individuals have relied upon the willingness of others to dismiss something not easily provable for decades. It is very prevalent to many people's daily experiences. This is a backlash against that, and it is a good thing.
Sure, I understand this. Cosby's laundry list is long. Roy Moore's hometown corroborated how much of a sleaze he was.
But Takei? That's a single accuser for an act that occurred around 36 years ago. I'm not so willing to run him under the bus quite yet. I'd like to learn more.
“It is better to live doing the things that you like. It is foolish to live within this dream of a world seeing unpleasantness and doing only things that you do not like.” -- Yamamoto Tsunetomo.
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@ganymede said in Celebrities that are Dead To Us:
@apos said in Celebrities that are Dead To Us:
Predatory individuals have relied upon the willingness of others to dismiss something not easily provable for decades. It is very prevalent to many people's daily experiences. This is a backlash against that, and it is a good thing.
Sure, I understand this. Cosby's laundry list is long. Roy Moore's hometown corroborated how much of a sleaze he was.
But Takei? That's a single accuser for an act that occurred around 36 years ago. I'm not so willing to run him under the bus quite yet. I'd like to learn more.
Yeah I agree, they all should be taken in different contexts. There's some people accused that I just don't think are that awful, and some that I think are pretty vile. I agree with your post earlier about degree being really important.
