Wheel of Time MU(SH|X)
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@yyrqun said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):
One solution could be to have a quota on channelers or restrict them in other ways like applications, probationary periods... but that is a bit strict seeing as how magic is core to the theme. A hard question, since the best Bladesmaster is nothing next to the best Aes Sedai.
This is like Star Wars games that limit Force-wielders, to me. People will want to play channelers. Why make it difficult if it doesn't need to be?
Anyway, agree that after the books is theoretically very interesting territory for a game. You could unsettle the established world in cool ways.
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@three-eyed-crow There is no way - simply no way - you can get around the fact a channeler is more powerful than a non-channeler. I spent many hours back in the day trying to design a system that reconciles the two and the only plausible way is to force PCs to be much weaker than the (admittedly top notch, strongest-in-the-world) book characters we know about.
Otherwise a channeler can blow up a house with his damn mind. It's kinda hard to explain why a guy with a sword is as powerful in a white room situation.
I completely agree though that limiting numbers of popular archetypes is a great way to piss off your players. If they want to play Aes Sedai let them; in fact, and to be honest here, the combination of romantically involved AS+Warder couples were such a strong trope it's practically guaranteed to generate player interest.
One thing that should be done though IMHO is make sure people have to make the choice of whether to improve in channeling or in their fighting skills. Yes, Rand had a heron-marked blade. No, Joe Asha'man shouldn't be just as good as an Aiel in melee combat and be able to bust out them rolling rings of earth and fire; force them to pick what they're good at, or to be average in both.
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@arkandel said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):
Here are some things I consider essential to a WoT game. By its nature, the list is of course subjective.
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I'd personally either place a MU's timeline in the period of the books or basically right afterwards while the dust has yet to settle.Agreed on all points, although I would add one more option to the timeline: a decade or two before the books. The Aiel War would be interesting, as would some of the False Dragons that pop up in the years before Rand. In many ways, running a WoT MU has the exact same problems as running a Star Wars MU: you need something familiar to get people readily involved, which means close to the media timelines, but the feature characters have the absolute potential to overwhelm all possible PC actions.
I agree with @Three-Eyed-Crow and @Arkandel that channelers in general have to be unrestricted... I think that WoT without channelers is even more odd than Star Wars without Force Users, and that's saying a lot. I think that most people who regularly play non-channelers have reconciled themselves to the fact that only ambush or poison is going to win a battle against a channeler--they can't play harder, they have to play smarter if they want to take one down (or go to Far Madding, but that's the same thing in many ways). I also agree that better-than-average combat and channeling power should effectively be mutually exclusive. This is actually one of the things that FS3 does well with its limit on "high" skills.
However, I think that (unless you're in an Age of Legends or Asha'man-ready timeline), I think that you should definitely limit male channelers. Madness is something that is (from what I've seen and experienced) very, very hard to pull off. All too often people just take it as an excuse to blow shit up.
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@seraphim73 @Arkandel
I'll add to this: Limiting Channellers is a bad idea. Limiting Black Ajah is a necessity. On Cuendillar, it seemed like every 2nd Aes Sedai was a frigging black ajah. It was stupid.Actually, I'll extend it: Limit darkfriends of all stripes. Have some active and sneaky ones, and that's way more effective than operating with the general understanding you're likely to hit one if you threw a rock in a room full of people.
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@dontpanda said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):
@seraphim73 @Arkandel
I'll add to this: Limiting Channellers is a bad idea. Limiting Black Ajah is a necessity. On Cuendillar, it seemed like every 2nd Aes Sedai was a frigging black ajah. It was stupid.I vaguely remember this and it was dumb as f.
I have no issue with limits on factions you want to watch carefully (and need to remain secret) like Black Ajah, or things that're ultra-rare in-world, like Blademasters. That kind of thing makes sense, and you can basically play most concepts one would want as an Aes Sedai/Warder/other bad-ass swordsman. Channelers are such a major part of the world that quotas feel like they take one of the major fun parts out of the setting, though.
Male channelers are only a problem in certain time periods, and I think a reason to avoid placing a game during those time periods. Granted, the era of False Dragons where saidin is tainted doesn't appeal to me much anyway.
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I find the issue of the 'balance' between Channelers and the mortals to be the same as Force Users and the average person . How do you reconcile this separation?
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Part of the balance within the theme, if set before the books so male channelers aren't much of a concern, is the Three Oaths. It prevents the average Aes Sedai from being murder machines, but not entirely.
I would not limit channeling characters by requiring a super special app, being my BFF, or monetary bribes or anything of that sort, but more like a limit of "one per player" since they are meant to be rare.
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One of the angles that I would 'consider' in a balancing thing is sticking with theme; strengths related to specific elements. A lot of games I saw danced around thi s issue or made it so you could 'improve' your strengths in elements. If I were working on this system; I would make the elemental choices static or very limited on improvement then tie the available weaves. So as ark said, you don't have the Channelers who are Blademasters. But beyond that you also don't have Channelers that can do 'every' weave.
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Right. And the oaths are likely going to be respected if the Black Ajah is limited. Yeah, channelers being one per player is likely the best solution.
Channelers and warders are likely the flagship concepts for a WoT game, so yeah, limiting them is probably too much.
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@seraphim73 said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):
Agreed on all points, although I would add one more option to the timeline: a decade or two before the books. The Aiel War would be interesting, as would some of the False Dragons that pop up in the years before Rand. In many ways, running a WoT MU has the exact same problems as running a Star Wars MU: you need something familiar to get people readily involved, which means close to the media timelines, but the feature characters have the absolute potential to overwhelm all possible PC actions.
The only problem I have with an almost-but-not-quite Rand era is how hard it is to detach it from the books. All those Prophecies won't fulfill themselves, and if you're waiting for the Dragon to rise (or even to be born) then it's easy to end up with a stagnant setting. The Aiel can't find a Car'a'carn, their shame can't be exposed, Wise Ones can't be outted for what they are, and there is no one forcing them to interact with wetlanders in semi-friendly terms,
Also, the male channelers thing is really limiting IMHO, for the reasons you mention. I think most games would benefit from allowing all kinds of channelers to be playable.
@dontpanda said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):
Actually, I'll extend it: Limit darkfriends of all stripes. Have some active and sneaky ones, and that's way more effective than operating with the general understanding you're likely to hit one if you threw a rock in a room full of people.
One way you could have darkfriends is to allow someone to take over them after the War is over. After all they didn't all die or become exposed, there were many who simply didn't even take part in the physical war - and they are nothing if not opportunistic, or lacking in resources.
Having a secretive group of nefarious people in control of caches of knowledge, resources and of course items as part of your game strikes me as a good idea. Should they be limited? I mean, maybe... it depends on the kind of game you want to run though. I don't think a single approach will fit all takes.
If nothing else, and in my experience, the Black Ajah was super limited in what they could do in a during-the-books setting since if they got exposed it was over for them. Your character could just survive the experience, relocate and be as successful as she liked, but that wouldn't do you - the player - much good since your roleplaying days as a Sister accounted for the grand majority of your scenes, and those were over.
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For some of you new to the thread that haven't read all the back pages (because who does that?) these are some ideas I had had regarding setting:
@wildbaboons said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):
This is really day 2 of me really considering this, but at the moment I am leaning towards a time before the books. One of several options there:
Trolloc Wars? Set the MUSh in Manetheren. Same world, but leaves some world building up to the MUSH and its players... any gives a good end of the story. Everyone dies, but inflict a lot of damage and fun on the way!
War of Hundred Years? Hawking is dead, almost all of the familiar countries and cultures are there, but new and fresh. Conflict, enemies, politics!
White Cloak War Leading up to the Aiel War? Lots of wars.. But conflict, enemies, politics. Similar to War of Hundred Years but closer to book timelines, more established with known theme
Setting it before the books means no Seanchan, Aiel or Asha'man.. but I'm probably fine with that. Means that channeling would be limited to Aes Sedai and they have the Three Oaths to stop them from being completely obnoxious murder machines.
System wise I am really leaning towards something very similar to the Dresden Files RPG magic system. It's a good way of balancing raw strength with finesse and talent.
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double post in my own thread!
Other alternative is setting maybe a year or two after the books. Gives all the people and factions that folks love but also includes super strong channellers of both sexes and only a subset of them limited by the Oaths. This can be balanced out somewhat systematically (need to have strong enforcement of just how exhausting channelling can be).. but it's difficult.
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@bobgoblin said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):
I find the issue of the 'balance' between Channelers and the mortals to be the same as Force Users and the average person . How do you reconcile this separation?
Well, PCs aren't the average person. In most Star Wars games (except WEG D6 with experienced characters), Force Users aren't that much more powerful than other PCs. In Saga, for instance, even without a House Rule to fix Skill Focus at low levels (and you should really have one, in my opinion), Force Users are only about 2 levels more powerful than non-Force Users, and non-FUs catch up by level 9-10.
I agree that the Three Oaths are a huge balancing factor for channelers--as long as Aes Sedai are your only channelers. As soon as you get wilders or male channelers involved... poof, there goes that balance.
@Arkandel I actually think that limiting male channelers is GOOD for the game, as mentioned above, because it helps keep some semblance of balance between channelers and non-channelers where fighting is involved.
But yes, if you set the game pre-books, you either have to completely divorce your game from the timeline (which is fine, in my opinion) or accept that the Aiel aren't going to get involved (unless it's the Aiel War) and there won't be Asha'man. That's why I still think that the best course is either a) somewhere Saldaea/Arad Doman way during the book period, or b) Whitecloak War/Aiel War period.
After the books could be interesting but... eh. Something about it just doesn't appeal to me... I guess it doesn't feel Wheel of Time to me. It's post-Wheel of Time, not actual Wheel of Time. But that could just be me.
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Those historical themes do sound interesting, but then again the further you back you go, the more the world becomes different. A couple hundred years after Hawkwing at least would be enough for all the cultures in the books to be in place. The After the Breaking years/Free Years are interesting, but might not be that familiar for a main setting.
On the other hand there's the issue is that the closer you get to the present, the more canon characters become important in the grand scheme of things, prophecies unfulfilled as @Arkandel said.
So that's why I'd still value a future where there's 1) male channelers, 2) a familiar world to the main setting of the books, and 3) a world open for changes on a large scale, with players having a big role in making these changes happen. But I'm never going to say no to playing a WoT game just because it's set during the Trolloc Wars.
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I wonder how people would feel about channelling if it was Book 1 presentation of channelling as opposed to book 13 version.
In book 1 one of the current strongest known Aes Sedai throws a few fireballs, makes a big wall of fire, and lends some stamina to people and ends up absolutely exhausted to the point of nearly having to be carried.
In book 13 people are throwing around a dozen fireballs a minute while countering others, making Gateways to travel around the country, and getting into weaving duel without breathing hard.
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@seraphim73 said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):
Well, PCs aren't the average person. In most Star Wars games (except WEG D6 with experienced characters), Force Users aren't that much more powerful than other PCs.
True, but the IC power gap between Force-trained characters and other combatants is much smaller than that of channelers and non-channelers in the WoT. If you go by the books, just the ability to wrap an enemy in air is too much - you can't beat that. In Star Wars you have all kinds of chemicals and high-tech weaponry to bridge the gap.
@Arkandel I actually think that limiting male channelers is GOOD for the game, as mentioned above, because it helps keep some semblance of balance between channelers and non-channelers where fighting is involved.
I'm just not a fan of limiting special playable concepts. I'd rather not have them at all than restrict them - because who ends up with them? It creates a big ugly divide, generates drama and appearance of favoritism that I've never seen work out for MU*, you know?.
But yes, if you set the game pre-books, you either have to completely divorce your game from the timeline (which is fine, in my opinion) or accept that the Aiel aren't going to get involved (unless it's the Aiel War) and there won't be Asha'man. That's why I still think that the best course is either a) somewhere Saldaea/Arad Doman way during the book period, or b) Whitecloak War/Aiel War period.
If I had to pick one I'd go with the former option. Not having Aiel around (let alone Asha'man) would deprive the game from too many great options.
@yyrqun said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):
A couple hundred years after Hawkwing at least would be enough for all the cultures in the books to be in place. The After the Breaking years/Free Years are interesting, but might not be that familiar for a main setting.
Yeah, that's my concern. You don't want to alienate the book lovers, you want to grab their attention - in my experience deviating too far just turns the game into a playable fanfic that doesn't resemble what your players are looking for in the first place.
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@seraphim73 said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):
After the books could be interesting but... eh. Something about it just doesn't appeal to me... I guess it doesn't feel Wheel of Time to me. It's post-Wheel of Time, not actual Wheel of Time. But that could just be me.
It strikes me as odd to, but I can't quite put my finger on why. The big thing is that the main conflict is over. The Last Battle happened and its on to something else. but that something else is intriguing.
The question of Prophecy was brought up and if that sort of thing interests people there at always more prophecies out there and after the books seems the best place for that. Bao the Wyld for example if you haven't read that is a great example of this.
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@arkandel said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):
True, but the IC power gap between Force-trained characters and other combatants is much smaller than that of channelers and non-channelers in the WoT
Agreed, and actually what I was trying to argue in the first place. I think that the divide between Super and Not is much larger in WoT than it is in Star Wars.
@arkandel said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):
I'm just not a fan of limiting special playable concepts. I'd rather not have them at all than restrict them - because who ends up with them?
Definitely a reasonable view. In any game that wasn't male-channeler friendly (Asha'man-okay, Age of Legends, etc) I would actually suggest something that Cuendillar did quite well: male channelers are available via application, but they are on a timer from the moment you create them. They're viable for X months (2d6? 4d3? Somewhere that nets you around 5-10 months most likely) and then they're taken off the board somehow, either madness, getting caught, or whatever. Staff knows how long it will be, but the player doesn't (except in that they know what the dice rolled are).
@arkandel said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):
Not having Aiel around (let alone Asha'man) would deprive the game from too many great options.
Heh, I actually put the Aiel War one up there because it's one of the few other times the Aiel come out of the Threefold Land, so I figured they could be viable character concepts. Just a few of them, no doubt, because they would have to be captives/turncoats/spies/SOMETHING to interact with the rest of the playerbase, but at least they're around. It's problematic to bring Aiel into the playerbase in that era, but at least it's possible.
@wildbaboons said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):
The big thing is that the main conflict is over. The Last Battle happened and its on to something else.
Yeah, I think this is what I was getting at. It doesn't feel like WoT anymore, it feels like another series of books that just happens to be set in the same world--except it's not the same world. The Shadow has been defeated, the lands have been drawn into two massive alliances under the Seanchan and the Aiel (sort of), and the Last Battle already happened. I mean, what happens after the Last Battle (besides clean-up)?
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@seraphim73 said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):
Definitely a reasonable view. In any game that wasn't male-channeler friendly (Asha'man-okay, Age of Legends, etc) I would actually suggest something that Cuendillar did quite well:
Since I've no idea how this went over on Cuendillar, what was well done about it? Did 'enough' people choose to play male channelers anyway? Would you call it a successful experiment?
Heh, I actually put the Aiel War one up there because it's one of the few other times the Aiel come out of the Threefold Land, so I figured they could be viable character concepts. Just a few of them, no doubt, because they would have to be captives/turncoats/spies/SOMETHING to interact with the rest of the playerbase, but at least they're around. It's problematic to bring Aiel into the playerbase in that era, but at least it's possible.
One of the reasons I like the past-the-books approach is that all the cats are out of the bag. We know what happened in their past, their prophecies have been fulfilled and they're already out and about. In any other time period I can think of you either don't have those elements or you need to go off the books which while doable, would for example mean the Prophecies were wrong.
The one thing I do like about going off the books is that... let's face it, that shit involves some heavy duty reading! Demanding that your players are knowledgeable about them can be a hefty requirement for newcomers.
I mean, what happens after the Last Battle (besides clean-up)?
That's the game!
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@seraphim73 said in Wheel of Time MU(SH|X):
I mean, what happens after the Last Battle (besides clean-up)?
Lenn flies to the moon on a flaming eagle and other stories.
But really, what Arkandel said. That's the game.