How to Escape the OOC Game
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@Sunny said in How to Escape the OOC Game:
@Lotherio said in How to Escape the OOC Game:
@Arkandel said in How to Escape the OOC Game:
@Rook said in How to Escape the OOC Game:
I've met several people that have made no bones about outright saying "If I dont know you, we don't RP" and then they needle for past characters/games/interaction information to place me by. I have learned to simply smile and shrug, tell them that it is their loss, and I move on.
How can that not be everyone's response?
If I have to prove myself to you just so we can play a game together what does that tell me about how much of a gift to the rest of us you think you are?
Wow.
I'd like to think I've never seen it, but I have. Not so much a direct, if someone doesn't know you they won't play with you, but I've gone places under not my name and hit brick walls with folks I know. Then if I show up next week and its me, I get an in, at least a little time of day.
This. When I identify myself as myself (as in not actively keeping it on the down low), I have a way way way way easier time finding RP than when I do not. There are a few things I don't have to deal with as well, but my experience between characters when I'm 'out' on one and not on another sort of makes me sad when I stop and actually think about it.
Among old folks who've played and know where to find RP (including other games when its dry spell) and such, or who know how to get going even as a new player, its not a thing. Even as @faraday mentioned, being known means its easier if you have a good reputation. However, relative to the concept of the OOC game, its not very newbie friendly to only play with known commodities, just in my opinion.
ETA: I should add 'for the first few months' of not being out, because the moment I end up around people who know me it's pretty much all over. SOMEDAY I will figure out what my tells are. Someday.
Staff: I know that IP, hey everyone, play with this PC its our old friend ... (Kidding, or I hope I'm kidding)
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@Lotherio said in How to Escape the OOC Game:
However, relative to the concept of the OOC game, its not very newbie friendly to only play with known commodities, just in my opinion.
Agreed. I think it's unhealthy for the game as a whole to not engage new/unknown folks, and something the community of any game, no matter how good they are right now lol, should be way way better about it. This is an area where everyone can pretty much always improve. I do my best to try when I remember, and I know a lot of other people do, too. Still worth bringing up and reminding us all about.
ETA: I should add 'for the first few months' of not being out, because the moment I end up around people who know me it's pretty much all over. SOMEDAY I will figure out what my tells are. Someday.
Staff: I know that IP, hey everyone, play with this PC its our old friend ... (Kidding, or I hope I'm kidding)
I wish you were kidding, lol.
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@Rook said in How to Escape the OOC Game:
I know that you think that this is shocking (if you are not being sarcastic or facetious), but it is much more common than you might understand. It happens a lot of WoD/CoD games that I've tried joining. Make a new character and make some page-contacts, looking for people who might want fresh RP in their circles, and almost every time I get asked who I am.
I haven't been asked that question since Denver by Night.
Otherwise, I concur with you. I'm not shocked. I can see from +where and +who how gaming has changed since when I first started.
I don't know what this has to do with masking or not-masking oneself.
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Meh. Fuck it. I'm conversing.
I like that Gany, Fara, Auspice, Surreal, and others can agree to disagree with me. I like to think that we do it well because they know that when we agree to disagree, it's just that. I still like them as people and I don't see a lot of topics that two people of the internet truly can't walk away from. I'm not going to have a conversation with someone about how great all 3 Matrix movies are (if you don't believe this, you're horrible) and then get (improperly) disagreed with, then turn to everyone else and be like:
"This is a Matrix 3 only party, bitch."Ultimately? I think people are just people. I think that most people put an idealized version of themselves on the internet, and that when it comes to RPGs you run the risk of so many hours spent roleplaying it's easy to subconsciously adapt that idealized OOC version of yourself into a persona that you have to upkeep.
Which is why I try very hard not to do that, and post a lot of Mac gifs.
Anyway, I digress.
I think everyone, even the people who may not like me, are just regular people. Regular people who hurt their shoulders while sleeping, hate hangovers, and have foods they choose to not eat because it gives them diarrhea. I think that people choose these OOC personas (or don't at all) for their own reasons, but there's really no way for me or anyone to qualify who they are without having existing RL relationships with them.
I could be Ben Affleck for all you know.
I think that some people have lost focus of this. People have good days, bad days, have differences of opinion on what good RP is, and communication between people who actually have actual sex all the time is difficult but it feels like the excepted success rate of communication in the hobby is waaaay higher a bar than it should be.
I think some people have become caught up in their confirmation bias, and on MSB you tend to see a lot of accusations where "Angry person A knows with complete paranormal accuracy the intentions and beliefs of Person B". I think there's some definite arrogance in that level of assumption and/or the assumption that you can actually determine who does or doesn't deserve another chance for...disappointing you?
I believe that there is very little actual real damage that happens in this hobby and that cases of cruel behavior, stalking, and cheating at games are the actual offenses. I believe that you cannot force an open-invitation environment to meet the preferences of a vocal group of people who have taken it upon themselves to arbitrarily keep mental tallies on players. Before long those mental tallies will become: "Well, they said words I didn't like once and they disagree with me on some things. I can't remember roleplaying with them or have any actual bad game experiences, but Fuck em until they own their shit and apologize to me for...a thing? I dunno. Fuck em." So damage ends up this subjective term, and whether or not someone deserves a second chance becomes a topic of public consumption designed to sway a mob, much like Matrix 3 or social rolls in WoD.
I agree: It's a clique, and that clique will always want the right to decide who is or isn't worthy of social hierarchy. What people don't understand is that this behavior is a beast that often comes back around to bite you. Alex and I were bullies in grade school. I was on top. Then Alex started bullying me. People fall out of favor, and others replace them.
Anyway, I'm all for people exercising the right to get on in peace. I think @faraday is 100% absolutely right in the spirit of her approach. My approach/suggestion isn't the utopian or preferable one, but I think it's a means to an end. In the end, though, ths hobby would be best if people played well together and fara's vision would be something unifying.
I just want people to treat each other with respect and if people have to spend 6 months to a year roleplaying in some kind of Eyes Wide Shut orgy mask to lessen the importance of OOC identities as being a major point of aggression? I'm alright. With that.
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@Ghost said in How to Escape the OOC Game:
I just want people to treat each other with respect and if people have to spend 6 months to a year roleplaying in some kind of Eyes Wide Shut orgy mask to lessen the importance of OOC identities as being a major point of aggression? I'm alright. With that.
I agree with your ultimate conclusion here, I really do.
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@Lotherio said in How to Escape the OOC Game:
Among old folks who've played and know where to find RP (including other games when its dry spell) and such, or who know how to get going even as a new player, its not a thing. Even as @faraday mentioned, being known means its easier if you have a good reputation. However, relative to the concept of the OOC game, its not very newbie friendly to only play with known commodities, just in my opinion.
You're equating "people can know who each other are" with "and thus they only play with known quantities".
These two things are not equivalent.
Sure, there are some folks who will only play with known quantities - just as there are some people in RL who will only hang out with their friends at a party.
But there are also people who will see the new guy in the corner by him/herself and go over and introduce themselves.
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@faraday said in How to Escape the OOC Game:
You're equating "people can know who each other are" with "and thus they only play with known quantities".
These two things are not equivalent.I concur, and I don't think I meant to imply people only play with known others. I did concur with @Rook such that I've seen differences where if no one knows me, I get less RP (sometimes none), and if I am myself I get a little more RP. Correlative, but not direct statistical relation, certainly not equivalent; didn't meant to imply some slippery slope there, sorry..
But there are also people who will see the new guy in the corner by him/herself and go over and introduce themselves.
I do see this as well. I can't speak to balance between either. But, chalk board analogy, one wrong things is like a mark on the chalk board, no matter how many good things happen (or it gets 'erased), that underlying mark is still noticeable.
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I, too, agree with Ghost's conclusions.
As usual, my posts tend to focus on a specific point someone has made, trying to make sure that said specific point doesn't get lost in the other specific points. I think that being excluded because you are an unknown factor is a Real Thing.
@Lotherio's chalk board analogy is a Real Thing, too. Do a few social experiments, as some have up above, and you might see things in a different light.
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@Lotherio said in How to Escape the OOC Game:
I concur, and I don't think I meant to imply people only play with known others. I did concur with @Rook such that I've seen differences where if no one knows me, I get less RP (sometimes none), and if I am myself I get a little more RP. Correlative, but not direct statistical relation, certainly not equivalent; didn't meant to imply some slippery slope there, sorry..
Just to be clear, I'm not disputing your basic point about getting more RP when people know you.
I think the "ideal world" I'm talking about is a little different than what we've had before, though. It's like that George Carlin quote: "What is an unknown person? Surely everyone is known to someone."
In the old-school MU world, your only identity (unless you labeled and broadcast yourself) was Bob@ThisGame. You're an enigma. Enigmas can be off-putting, especially when so may folks have been burned by creepers in the past.
But with something like the Ares handles, you you at least have an identity as a player. A profile. A history. Even someone who hasn't RPed with you might have crossed paths with you on some game in the past, or at least be peripherally aware of who you are in the community. They may not know who you are, but they have some inkling of who you're not.
Like @Ghost said, I don't think that player identities is some magic bullet solution for all social ills, but I do believe it's a net benefit.
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P.S. Ghost is not Ben Affleck
and whichever Matrix movie had the weird Zion orgy was bad.
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@faraday said in How to Escape the OOC Game:
Enigmas can be off-putting, especially when so may folks have been burned by creepers in the past.
^ This. Building on what you said here...
What people don't necessarily understand -- unless it has happened to them -- is how persistent some of these people can be.
I mentioned an example earlier in the thread of someone (Jeurg) who I had never heard of when I played on TR, since I never played on HM and was not active at the time. Being someone who are chill on a game as being chill until they're not, when he mentioned this, it was a case of 'oh, whatever, you seem chill to me, I have no idea who that is'. And I found out the hard way. I also saw first hand as he talked about someone who had put out a 'no contact' with him on HM and had it enforced, and how he'd figured out who they were on TR. He immediately went to join the faction they were in and was needling at them -- gleefully. I don't believe he understood at all that this did not impress me and I did not think it was cute, clever, or some sign of how awesome he was.
I played with someone for ages on Shang, who then turned out to be so possessive they made the idea of even being in a room with another player there, on TR, or on BITN, a very anxiety-laden experience, even if I was just sitting there idle for 12 hours when they popped in to give me crap about what I was supposedly actively doing. (Idling, duh.) And gods help me I unidled. (Normally, I was chilling with Ghost talking OOC about horror movies through the day while he was at work -- pretty sure he remembers this craziness.) This person would, on Shang when CG was easy and open, create unknown-to-me logins simply to go to wherever I was and sit there silently and watch what I did. This was less obvious in big public areas than it was, say, when he'd send one into a cafe where two people were talking over dinner. (Which he also did.) I would get crazy abusive RL emails and text messages from this person -- once involving dozens of texts calling me a slut/whore/traitorous harlot/etc. for, no joke, hugging someone in a public place and saying, "I haven't seen you in ages!"
Someone I played with all the way back in the 90s and was entirely normal at the time? Has started behaving in an abusive manner toward me over the last few years, from out of nowhere, because we have barely had any contact at all between now and then. This persisted to chasing me here to vomit abusive delusions at me that are, frankly, genuinely frightening. Ark and Gany have been champs handling this and they deserve a fuckin' medal, for real. This guy and his penchant for making new accounts once he's banned and PMing from them is... well, see sig. This person is local, knows where I am, and is apparently already known to law enforcement. I had to report this person to law enforcement myself.
So, y'all... it can get bad. I am not trying to throw the bucket of cold water on good feelings here. I am saying: do not underestimate or dismiss concerns when people have them. I am not talking about a few creepy pages in an OOC room where someone says something skeevy, you pagelock them, and you're done[1]. A lot of folks seem to think that's all there is to these concerns when people bring them up, and that is simply not the case.
I know I am not the only one with stories like these. I've heard similar things privately over the years to be tragically aware of that. People tend not to talk about them, because they are scary, they are ashamed of having trusted this person at some point, that they just want it all to be over, and for a variety of other reasons. I have chosen to talk about these things openly because I know I'm not the only one they happen to. (Of all my various and sundry hills to die on, this is the mountain.)
That we regularly only hear about the intermittent bout of creepy pages or come-ons makes it seem to many that this is all that's happening. To be clear: if that traumatizes someone, that trauma is real, and should be respected as such. Truth is, it rarely will. But here's the problem: those are the stories we hear. Those are the issues most folks are able to handle, and in most cases know are not something that's going to considerably scramble their brains or bring on panic attacks or similar.
That, unfortunately, makes it easier than it should be to hand-wave off as 'no big deal' when people talk about creeping or stalking or harassment, period. Because these examples are the ones we hear about on the daily. Are they more common? Absolutely. But they aren't 'as far as it goes'. We would all do very well to remember that, and not automatically assume they're talking about a few pages in an OOC room about how someone wants to bang their hot PB.
- Please note: I am not saying this is 'nothing' or 'not important'. If this happens, report that shit! It is a completely valid issue.
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@Auspice said in How to Escape the OOC Game:
Matrix movie had the weird Zion orgy was bad.
The second one. I have more appreciation for 2 now, 20 years later at least. I still don't like blind I can read code in the real world #3 Neo.
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While I have not had that specific experience, I have had similar within the hobby. Very similar. I have had to get RL law enforcement involved. These statements by @surreality are true things; these are lived experiences. It's worth keeping in mind when discussing the topic.
ETA: Y'know, screw it. There was a period (which ended with me ultimately leaving the hobby for a while) where my ex husband (or someone pretending to be him) was logging into games and pretending to be somebody else to get around the protection order I had and continue to screw with me. He made a character and roleplayed with other people long-term and everything. This shit happens to people. I am pretty sure he still pokes in here and lurks every once in a while to keep tabs on me, based on things my kid has said.
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@Auspice said in How to Escape the OOC Game:
P.S. Ghost is not Ben Affleck
P.S. My "Don't you EVER tell them that I'm actually Ben Affleck" clause is seemingly alive and well.
Banana sticker for the day, Auspice.
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@Sunny I am really sorry that happened to you. Please know that if anything like that ever happens, I will always have your back.
Hell, the (unnamed) person I am beyond furious with to the point of seeing red? I know she's been messed with as well by legitimately bad actors, and while I genuinely want nothing to do with her? If something like that ever happened to her again, I would absolutely have her back, too, zero hesitation, no question about it.
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@surreality said in How to Escape the OOC Game:
Please note: I am not saying this is 'nothing' or 'not important'. If this happens, report that shit! It is a completely valid issue.
Just want to repeat this. Report it RL if you're able, but report it on game to staff.
If staff can't help or try, probably not a game for you. But it is disheartening to learn after the fact, as staff, a creeper has come onto your game and gotten away with stuff that has driven good players off.
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@Lotherio said in How to Escape the OOC Game:
I have more appreciation for 2 now, 20 years later at least.
...something inside me just hemorrhaged at reading that.
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@surreality said in How to Escape the OOC Game:
@Sunny I am really sorry that happened to you. Please know that if anything like that ever happens, I will always have your back.
Hell, the (unnamed) person I am beyond furious with to the point of seeing red? I know she's been messed with as well by legitimately bad actors, and while I genuinely want nothing to do with her? If something like that ever happened to her again, I would absolutely have her back, too, zero hesitation, no question about it.
I know (and trust) you would, regardless of where we are personally at any given time. You're a good person.
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@Sunny Ditto that, in full.
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@Lotherio said in How to Escape the OOC Game:
@surreality said in How to Escape the OOC Game:
Please note: I am not saying this is 'nothing' or 'not important'. If this happens, report that shit! It is a completely valid issue.
Just want to repeat this. Report it RL if you're able, but report it on game to staff.
If staff can't help or try, probably not a game for you. But it is disheartening to learn after the fact, as staff, a creeper has come onto your game and gotten away with stuff that has driven good players off.
This.
Every game my big thing happened on, as soon as it was confirmed, it was dealt with. Immediately. Then for a while I was frontloading staff with the info when I played, and these days it hasn't happened in so long it might not any more. But I have never had a staff member on any game ever when I explained what was going on NOT take immediate action to help.
So I really urge people to give the staff on the games the benefit of the doubt in situations where it's baaaaad, because you might think it sounds insane but really people if they are making a game 99.99999999999999999999999999999999% do just want to be your hero for stuff. Whoever 'you' are.